Rodric Williams asked the inquiry to define what is meant by 'strategy'.
Jason Beer KC promptly responded: "I haven't got my dictionary with me at the moment".
Beer added "a pre-designed plan that has aims and objectives... that's a strategy in my mind" and referenced to Williams using the word 'strategy' in his own witness statement.
He asked Williams about his understanding of the Post Office's media strategy.
Williams, a former litigation lawyer at the Post Office, said he doesn't "recall" having a pre-defined plan for the media.
Williams 'not involved' with PO's media strategy
Counsel to the inquiry is asking Williams about his role as a lawyer advising the Post Office media team.
Beer presses Williams on his understanding of the Post Office's media strategy.
Williams says he was not involved with planning the media strategy, he simply helped the media team with legal advice. He was the point man in the legal department for the Post Office communications team.
Williams says the Post Office had its side of the story to tell, and that there was a feeling that people did not want to engage with it.
He emphasises again that he was not responsible for setting the Post Office's media strategy. Beer presses him on what his understand was of the strategy.
'If I caused somebody harm, I am deeply sorry' - Williams
Williams is asked about his written evidence: "Over 100 pages... you don't say anywhere that you did anything wrong?"
He replies "I think I have said that I did something wrong" with reference to his ten years of work.
Shortly afterwards, Williams adds that "things have gone wrong and that's why I'm here."
"I missed a reference to the possibility for remote access" in 2014 in an early Deloitte report, he said.
He is also asked: "You don't offer an apology to sub-postmasters in your witness statement?"
Williams says: "I certainly tried to..." and referenced to a paragraph where he offered "deep regret for the significant harm caused to so many individuals".
He is pressed on this and adds: "If I have caused somebody harm, I am deeply sorry".
Williams quizzed on 'feelings in the office' towards postmasters
Jason Beer KC now asks Williams about the attitude, within the legal team at the Post Office, toward sub-postmasters who were trying to defend themselves against allegations they had stolen money and were saying it was because of Horizon.
"What was the general attitude, if there was one?" Beer asks.
"I don't think there was a general feeling," Williams says.
He continues: "I am sorry I am really struggling with this because I am trying to picture the work environment, which is where I feel you're taking me."
Beer says he wants to know whether there was an "attitude of mind" toward sub-postmasters, to which Williams says "I wouldn't have thought so, no."
"There was a lot of discussion at the corporate communications level about postmasters being the heart of the company and clearly an essential component of the business, customer-facing part of the business," Williams says.
Asked about the "feeling in the office" toward postmaster, Williams says he'd hope it was neutral.
'I'm not a criminal lawyer' - Williams
More on the suspension of sub-postmasters now. Despite prosecutions stopping in 2014, sub-postmasters continued to be suspended.
When asked about his role in this, Williams says he was asked for "advice" and "support" on the cases, but the team that handled these was contract advisors, not his team.
Beer, counsel to the inquiry, asks him to clarify if this advice was about whether there was grounds to suspend.
"I think yes is the answer," Williams says. He goes on to say he would not describe himself as a criminal lawyer, but that he did not make this clear to people in the PO when he was asked to give them advice.
He says when he joined, he "had been hired to tend to civil matters, and certainly to most of my colleagues it would be well known that I wasn't a criminal lawyer."
But he is pushed on this by Beer who asks if the lawyer made the disclaimer to colleagues and in-house clients that he was not a criminal lawyer.
"I don't recall expressly putting that disclaimer on things," Williams says.
Williams unsure of PO's prosecuting authority status
Post Office InquiryCopyright: Post Office Inquiry
Jason Beer KCImage caption: Jason Beer KC
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asks Williams when did he become aware
of the large number of prosecutions being brought by the Post Office.
Williams joined the Post Office in 2012, moving to dispute resolution in 2017.
Williams says he became aware of the high numbers of prosecutions of sub-postmasters after he joined the organisation.
Beer asks Williams if, when he joined, he was aware that the Post Office was a prosecuting authority.
Williams replies that he was aware of the prosecuting activity, but he wasn't sure about it being a prosecuting authority.
Williams' role to ensure PO received 'advice it needed'
Rodric Williams is asked if his role was limited to summarising the legal advice of others.
It would "depend on the task at hand," Williams said.
Shortly afterwards, he confirms he provided legal advice and further detailed that his role was to ensure the Post Office was receiving the advice "needed", which may have come from a variety of sources.
Williams dealt with compensation and appeals
Beer runs through Williams' background now.
He joined the Post Office in August 2012 and is currently one of several heads of legal in the remediation team, a role he's held since August 2020.
The remediation unit deals with compensation and redress, issues of appeals of convictions, and providing assistance to the inquiry.
Before that though, he was a litigation lawyer for the Post Office and previously worked as a lawyer in New Zealand, the United States and in the UK for other companies.
Beer asks Williams if he deals with compensation and redress, to which he replies "I have done previously, yes".
We're hearing that Williams has also assisted the PO with appeals but does not deal with the inquiry part of the team.
Who is Rodric Williams?
Peter Ruddick
Business reporter
Post Office InquiryCopyright: Post Office Inquiry
Rodric Williams sworn-in at this morning's inquiryImage caption: Rodric Williams sworn-in at this morning's inquiry
Thanks to the ITV drama 'Mr Bates vs The
Post Office', there are so many key players in this scandal that have almost
become household names. Rodric Williams is not one of them. But that doesn't
make his evidence any less important.
The fact Williams is appearing over two
days tells us something crucial. He has been at the organisation for a long
time. In fact, he is still there as one of their heads of legal.
His extensive experience in the organisation
is reflected in the fact he has provided a 131-page witness statement to
accompany his testimony.
There are a three key things I am keen to
learn:
What knowledge did he have of Horizon
glitches and what efforts were made to give sub-postmasters information of any
bugs when they were involved in legal battles?
What was his involvement in the
Second Sight investigation portrayed in the TV drama? He was named in documents
where a delay to the final report was discussed
Why do sub-postmasters feel like the
process of overturning convictions and getting financial redress is taking too
long?
Questions to Williams begin
Post Office InquiryCopyright: Post Office Inquiry
Rodric WilliamsImage caption: Rodric Williams
Rodric Williams is being questioned now by Jason Beer KC, counsel to the inquiry.
His witness statement is immediately shown to the inquiry as Beer deals with the corrections that Williams wants to make before his evidence begins.
Williams was a litigation lawyer for the PO during the Horizon scandal, and is currently their head of legal for dispute resolution and brand.
Stay with us as we bring you more lines.
Former sub-postmasters met with Rishi Sunak
Emma Simpson
Reporting from the inquiry
Before today's evidence starts, I’ve bumped into former sub-postmasters Lee Castleton, Janet Skinner and Tracey Felstead. They met with Rishi Sunak yesterday.
He invited them, Lee tells me and says it was a good meeting.
They’ve stayed over to come along and hear what Rodric Williams has to say today.
How to watch the inquiry live
You can follow today's hearing live by heading to the top of this page and tapping the large Play icon.
This morning's session is expected to begin shortly, at around 09:45 BST.
We'll also bring you the key news lines here for you to read, so stay with us.
It was introduced by the Post Office in 1999. Sub-postmasters quickly complained about bugs in the system after it falsely reported shortfalls - often for many thousands of pounds.
More than 900 convictions across the UK since 1999
According to the Department for Business and Trade there have been 983 UK-wide convictions, with 700 being Post Office prosecutions and 283 prosecutions brought by other groups, including the Crown Prosecution Service, since the Horizon System was installed in 1999.
The Post Office said it would be "inappropriate" to comment. The Criminal Cases Review Commission said the scandal was "the most widespread miscarriage of justice" it had seen.
The Post Office prosecutions include some in Scotland and Northern Ireland, where separate action will have to be taken to clear those affected. Scotland’s First Minister Humza Yousaf said he was also keen to work with UK ministers on the issue.
What happened on Wednesday?
The inquiry yesterday heard evidence from former Post Office investigator Jon Longman and ex-Royal Mail chairman Allan Leighton. Here are some key moments from their evidence:
Leighton began his evidence by saying the Horizon scandal is “unbelievable” and “terrible”, and he apologised for “elements” of it that occurred during his time in the role
Pressed by lawyers, Leighton said he was aware that prosecutions were conducted by the Post Office, unlike senior executives Alan Cook and Adam Crozier who said earlier this week they were not.
Separately, Longman said he should have tried harder to get data requested on behalf of Seema Misra, who was eight weeks pregnant when she was sentenced to 15 months in prison
Julian Blake, counsel to the inquiry, asked why the requests had been rejected. An internal Post Office email from June 2009 argued the size of Misra's request would have used up too much of its "quota", while another email argued that a lot of postmasters tend to "plead guilty at the 11th hour"
"With hindsight, I wish the data requested had been provided," Longman said, adding that he "should have been a bit more forceful in getting disclosure to the defence"
What is the Post Office Horizon scandal?
More than 900 sub-postmasters were wrongly prosecuted for stealing because of incorrect information from a computer system called Horizon.
The Post Office itself took many cases to court, prosecuting 700 people between 1999 and 2015. Another 283 cases were brought by other bodies, including the Crown Prosecution Service. Many sub-postmasters went to prison for false accounting and theft, and several were financially ruined.
In 2017, a group of 555 sub-postmasters took legal action against the Post Office. In 2019, it agreed to pay them £58m in compensation, but much of the money went on legal fees. A draft report uncovered by the BBC showed the Post Office spent £100m fighting the group in court despite knowing its defence was untrue. The Post Office said it would be"inappropriate" to comment on the report.
Although campaigners won the right for their cases to be reconsidered, only 95 convictions had been overturned by mid-January 2024.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission said the scandal was "the most widespread miscarriage of justice" it had seen.
The Metropolitan Police is also investigating the Post Office over potential fraud offences.
.Copyright: .
Lawyer could shine light on key Post Office investigation
Emma Simpson
Business correspondent
Rodric Williams is giving evidence today. He was part of the Post Office in-house legal team, working on civil litigation and is still working at the Post Office today as head of legal for dispute resolution and brand.
Williams is going to be questioned over two days as he covers a long and crucial period when the alleged cover up was well under way.
He is likely to have knowledge of some of key areas of this phase of the inquiry, from the Second Sight investigation, led by independent investigators Ron Warmington and Ian Henderson, the mediation scheme for sub-postmasters that eventually collapsed and the epic group legal action led by Alan Bates against the Post Office.
What light will he shed on the Post Office's response to the scandal, and how heavily involved in it was he behind the scenes?
Former litigation lawyer to give evidence
Aoife Walsh
Live editor
Good morning and welcome to our coverage. You’re joining us as the Post Office inquiry continues at Aldwych House in central London.
Today, we’ll be hearing evidence from lawyer Rodric Williams, the Post Office’s litigation lawyer and current head of legal for dispute resolution and brand. He’ll be appearing at the inquiry again on Friday.
Little is known about Williams, although his name has come up fleetingly in previous hearings.
We’re expecting to learn more about what went on behind the scenes between 1999 and 2015, when the Post Office prosecuted hundreds of sub-postmasters because of data from the faulty Horizon IT system.
We’ll be bringing you the latest developments and analysis here on this page, and you can also watch the inquiry live from 09:45 by pressing the Play icon at the top of this page.
Live Reporting
Edited by Marita Moloney
All times stated are UK
Williams 'doesn't recall media strategy'
Rodric Williams asked the inquiry to define what is meant by 'strategy'.
Jason Beer KC promptly responded: "I haven't got my dictionary with me at the moment".
Beer added "a pre-designed plan that has aims and objectives... that's a strategy in my mind" and referenced to Williams using the word 'strategy' in his own witness statement.
He asked Williams about his understanding of the Post Office's media strategy.
Williams, a former litigation lawyer at the Post Office, said he doesn't "recall" having a pre-defined plan for the media.
Williams 'not involved' with PO's media strategy
Counsel to the inquiry is asking Williams about his role as a lawyer advising the Post Office media team.
Beer presses Williams on his understanding of the Post Office's media strategy.
Williams says he was not involved with planning the media strategy, he simply helped the media team with legal advice. He was the point man in the legal department for the Post Office communications team.
Williams says the Post Office had its side of the story to tell, and that there was a feeling that people did not want to engage with it.
He emphasises again that he was not responsible for setting the Post Office's media strategy. Beer presses him on what his understand was of the strategy.
'If I caused somebody harm, I am deeply sorry' - Williams
Williams is asked about his written evidence: "Over 100 pages... you don't say anywhere that you did anything wrong?"
He replies "I think I have said that I did something wrong" with reference to his ten years of work.
Shortly afterwards, Williams adds that "things have gone wrong and that's why I'm here."
"I missed a reference to the possibility for remote access" in 2014 in an early Deloitte report, he said.
He is also asked: "You don't offer an apology to sub-postmasters in your witness statement?"
Williams says: "I certainly tried to..." and referenced to a paragraph where he offered "deep regret for the significant harm caused to so many individuals".
He is pressed on this and adds: "If I have caused somebody harm, I am deeply sorry".
Williams quizzed on 'feelings in the office' towards postmasters
Jason Beer KC now asks Williams about the attitude, within the legal team at the Post Office, toward sub-postmasters who were trying to defend themselves against allegations they had stolen money and were saying it was because of Horizon.
"What was the general attitude, if there was one?" Beer asks.
"I don't think there was a general feeling," Williams says.
He continues: "I am sorry I am really struggling with this because I am trying to picture the work environment, which is where I feel you're taking me."
Beer says he wants to know whether there was an "attitude of mind" toward sub-postmasters, to which Williams says "I wouldn't have thought so, no."
"There was a lot of discussion at the corporate communications level about postmasters being the heart of the company and clearly an essential component of the business, customer-facing part of the business," Williams says.
Asked about the "feeling in the office" toward postmaster, Williams says he'd hope it was neutral.
'I'm not a criminal lawyer' - Williams
More on the suspension of sub-postmasters now. Despite prosecutions stopping in 2014, sub-postmasters continued to be suspended.
When asked about his role in this, Williams says he was asked for "advice" and "support" on the cases, but the team that handled these was contract advisors, not his team.
Beer, counsel to the inquiry, asks him to clarify if this advice was about whether there was grounds to suspend.
"I think yes is the answer," Williams says. He goes on to say he would not describe himself as a criminal lawyer, but that he did not make this clear to people in the PO when he was asked to give them advice.
He says when he joined, he "had been hired to tend to civil matters, and certainly to most of my colleagues it would be well known that I wasn't a criminal lawyer."
But he is pushed on this by Beer who asks if the lawyer made the disclaimer to colleagues and in-house clients that he was not a criminal lawyer.
"I don't recall expressly putting that disclaimer on things," Williams says.
Williams unsure of PO's prosecuting authority status
Counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC asks Williams when did he become aware of the large number of prosecutions being brought by the Post Office.
Williams joined the Post Office in 2012, moving to dispute resolution in 2017.
Williams says he became aware of the high numbers of prosecutions of sub-postmasters after he joined the organisation.
Beer asks Williams if, when he joined, he was aware that the Post Office was a prosecuting authority.
Williams replies that he was aware of the prosecuting activity, but he wasn't sure about it being a prosecuting authority.
Williams' role to ensure PO received 'advice it needed'
Rodric Williams is asked if his role was limited to summarising the legal advice of others.
It would "depend on the task at hand," Williams said.
Shortly afterwards, he confirms he provided legal advice and further detailed that his role was to ensure the Post Office was receiving the advice "needed", which may have come from a variety of sources.
Williams dealt with compensation and appeals
Beer runs through Williams' background now.
He joined the Post Office in August 2012 and is currently one of several heads of legal in the remediation team, a role he's held since August 2020.
The remediation unit deals with compensation and redress, issues of appeals of convictions, and providing assistance to the inquiry.
Before that though, he was a litigation lawyer for the Post Office and previously worked as a lawyer in New Zealand, the United States and in the UK for other companies.
Beer asks Williams if he deals with compensation and redress, to which he replies "I have done previously, yes".
We're hearing that Williams has also assisted the PO with appeals but does not deal with the inquiry part of the team.
Who is Rodric Williams?
Peter Ruddick
Business reporter
Thanks to the ITV drama 'Mr Bates vs The Post Office', there are so many key players in this scandal that have almost become household names. Rodric Williams is not one of them. But that doesn't make his evidence any less important.
The fact Williams is appearing over two days tells us something crucial. He has been at the organisation for a long time. In fact, he is still there as one of their heads of legal.
His extensive experience in the organisation is reflected in the fact he has provided a 131-page witness statement to accompany his testimony.
There are a three key things I am keen to learn:
Questions to Williams begin
Rodric Williams is being questioned now by Jason Beer KC, counsel to the inquiry.
His witness statement is immediately shown to the inquiry as Beer deals with the corrections that Williams wants to make before his evidence begins.
Williams was a litigation lawyer for the PO during the Horizon scandal, and is currently their head of legal for dispute resolution and brand.
Stay with us as we bring you more lines.
Former sub-postmasters met with Rishi Sunak
Emma Simpson
Reporting from the inquiry
Before today's evidence starts, I’ve bumped into former sub-postmasters Lee Castleton, Janet Skinner and Tracey Felstead. They met with Rishi Sunak yesterday.
He invited them, Lee tells me and says it was a good meeting.
They’ve stayed over to come along and hear what Rodric Williams has to say today.
How to watch the inquiry live
You can follow today's hearing live by heading to the top of this page and tapping the large Play icon.
This morning's session is expected to begin shortly, at around 09:45 BST.
We'll also bring you the key news lines here for you to read, so stay with us.
What is Horizon?
Horizon was developed by the Japanese company Fujitsu, for tasks such as accounting and stocktaking.
It was introduced by the Post Office in 1999. Sub-postmasters quickly complained about bugs in the system after it falsely reported shortfalls - often for many thousands of pounds.
The Horizon system is still used by the Post Office, which describes the latest version as "robust".
More than 900 convictions across the UK since 1999
According to the Department for Business and Trade there have been 983 UK-wide convictions, with 700 being Post Office prosecutions and 283 prosecutions brought by other groups, including the Crown Prosecution Service, since the Horizon System was installed in 1999.
So far just 95 have had their convictions overturned. A draft report uncovered by the BBC shows the Post Office spent £100m fighting the group in court despite knowing its defence was untrue.
The Post Office said it would be "inappropriate" to comment. The Criminal Cases Review Commission said the scandal was "the most widespread miscarriage of justice" it had seen.
The Post Office prosecutions include some in Scotland and Northern Ireland, where separate action will have to be taken to clear those affected. Scotland’s First Minister Humza Yousaf said he was also keen to work with UK ministers on the issue.
What happened on Wednesday?
The inquiry yesterday heard evidence from former Post Office investigator Jon Longman and ex-Royal Mail chairman Allan Leighton. Here are some key moments from their evidence:
What is the Post Office Horizon scandal?
More than 900 sub-postmasters were wrongly prosecuted for stealing because of incorrect information from a computer system called Horizon.
The Post Office itself took many cases to court, prosecuting 700 people between 1999 and 2015. Another 283 cases were brought by other bodies, including the Crown Prosecution Service. Many sub-postmasters went to prison for false accounting and theft, and several were financially ruined.
In 2017, a group of 555 sub-postmasters took legal action against the Post Office. In 2019, it agreed to pay them £58m in compensation, but much of the money went on legal fees. A draft report uncovered by the BBC showed the Post Office spent £100m fighting the group in court despite knowing its defence was untrue. The Post Office said it would be"inappropriate" to comment on the report.
Although campaigners won the right for their cases to be reconsidered, only 95 convictions had been overturned by mid-January 2024.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission said the scandal was "the most widespread miscarriage of justice" it had seen.
The Metropolitan Police is also investigating the Post Office over potential fraud offences.
Lawyer could shine light on key Post Office investigation
Emma Simpson
Business correspondent
Rodric Williams is giving evidence today. He was part of the Post Office in-house legal team, working on civil litigation and is still working at the Post Office today as head of legal for dispute resolution and brand.
Williams is going to be questioned over two days as he covers a long and crucial period when the alleged cover up was well under way.
He is likely to have knowledge of some of key areas of this phase of the inquiry, from the Second Sight investigation, led by independent investigators Ron Warmington and Ian Henderson, the mediation scheme for sub-postmasters that eventually collapsed and the epic group legal action led by Alan Bates against the Post Office.
What light will he shed on the Post Office's response to the scandal, and how heavily involved in it was he behind the scenes?
Former litigation lawyer to give evidence
Aoife Walsh
Live editor
Good morning and welcome to our coverage. You’re joining us as the Post Office inquiry continues at Aldwych House in central London.
Today, we’ll be hearing evidence from lawyer Rodric Williams, the Post Office’s litigation lawyer and current head of legal for dispute resolution and brand. He’ll be appearing at the inquiry again on Friday.
Little is known about Williams, although his name has come up fleetingly in previous hearings.
We’re expecting to learn more about what went on behind the scenes between 1999 and 2015, when the Post Office prosecuted hundreds of sub-postmasters because of data from the faulty Horizon IT system.
We’ll be bringing you the latest developments and analysis here on this page, and you can also watch the inquiry live from 09:45 by pressing the Play icon at the top of this page.