'I feel unsafe when I go out in the dark' - Nick Robinson's daughter tells dad

Alice with her father Nick Robinson

"That's what girls have to think about all of the time."

Actress Saoirse Ronan's comment on The Graham Norton Show - in response to male actors joking whether anyone would actually consider using their phone as a weapon - has ignited conversations about women's safety and how little men know about it.

The dialogue prompted BBC Radio 4's Today programme presenter Nick Robinson to interview his daughter, Alice, a teacher in her late twenties, about how often she felt unsafe.

Here is an edited version of their conversation that aired on Friday.

Alice: 'Women constantly think about how to keep safe'

I think probably what a lot of women felt is that it just vocalised the problem that lots of us have been saying for a long time. And it was nice to see an example of, I could use the word male ignorance, but I don't mean that derogatorily, you just don't know about something if you don't have to experience it all the time - it was nice to see that reflected and someone immediately clap back and be praised for it.

I always have my phone in my hands. I've thought about my phone as a weapon loads of times.

We've had that conversation [about what I do to stay safe] before, five years ago, especially post-Sarah Everard.

We were walking together, it was just after lockdown had ended, you're on the streets again for the first time in a while, and you're having to reconsider all of those rules that you put in place for yourself. And we had a conversation about it and you were very shocked.

Something else that came up is people staring at you in the street. Men stare at women in a way that makes you very uncomfortable but they don't do it in front of other men. So it becomes this mass thing where men who don't do that don't realise that's a thing.

Women of all generations are constantly thinking about how to keep themselves safe. It's not just my generation. My mum speaks about it with her friends a lot. I was talking to my partner's mum today, she was also thinking about how to keep herself safe.

Everyone has different strategies. And I would say the most exhausting thing is trying to work out which strategy is most appropriate, because a lot of them go against each other.

For example, this Monday, I was on a bus, in the front seats of a double-decker bus at the top, and a man stood behind me on the stairs even though there were loads of seats free, so that's weird already. And people had to squeeze past him to get on and off. And then he came and sat next to me, and I know it doesn't sound like a big thing, but he'd already shown himself to be unusual. I felt incredibly uncomfortable.

There are two different strategies that probably lots of women are thinking about. A, I can leave that seat as soon as possible and get off, because my stop was next. But if I do that, then he knows I'm getting off at the next stop, so is that safe? Because he could follow me off the bus.

Or the other strategy is to stay in my seat as long as possible and leave myself physically vulnerable there and then run off at my stop so he can't follow me off, but then I'm leaving myself vulnerable on the bus. So how do you juggle that? Which one is the correct one to do?

I closed down Google Maps on my phone so he couldn't see where I was going and I did get off because I didn't feel safe sitting next to him. And when I looked at the bus when the bus left he'd moved into a different seat, so he was definitely following me.

Every time I go out in the dark [I feel unsafe]. Any time.

I think putting your keys between your fingers is probably more common, because then you could scrape someone's face, again, do you want to do that because then your keys are available for someone to potentially take off you or work out where you live, so there are contradictions there.

Other things are pretending or being on the phone with someone and saying I will be there in 10 minutes, I'm looking forward, and sometimes you drop male names so they know that men are about to meet you who could I guess theoretically beat them up, I don't know.

My friend has my location on her phone so she can check where I am.

Sometimes you wouldn't wear headphones in the dark because that could be unsafe because you don't know what's going on, but sometimes I deliberately wear headphones so people won't talk to me, because you get catcalled more if you are not wearing headphones, so you have to work out which is the most safe one to do in each situation depending on where you are.

I think it's just something that you learn. You're constantly looking over your shoulder to check.

And there's a sense that you have to make the right decision because if something goes wrong, people will ask you what you did. There is often a culture of "well, she was on her own late at night, so what do you expect to happen", and you don't want to be that person.

Nick: 'A lot of listening and learning to do'

My memory of that conversation [after lockdown] is that I was yes, surprised, but also shocked at the thought that you had to put into keeping yourself safe, something I think that you talk about with women friends all the time.

Even though I'm hearing this for the second time, I'm shocked at how often it is. I mean, men do think about their safety, there are moments in the dark, there are dark streets, alleyways where I'm wary, where I cross the road, where I think I don’t really want to stand next to that person, so I make calculations, but nothing like as often as you obviously do. I'm appalled that you have to think about that so often.

I think one thing, this man, this older man has taken from this conversation, is there is a lot of listening and a lot of learning to do.

You can listen to the full discussion on BBC Sounds.