Full transcript of The Robyn, Jamie and Lion Show: Obsession - 17 November 2017.

This is a full transcript of The Robyn, Jamie and Lion Show: Obsession as presented by Robyn Steward and Jamie Knight and first broadcast on 17 November 2017.

JAMIE - [With introductory music] Over the weekend somebody bought me some chocolate frogs, and I was far more interested in how they would have machined the mould to the chocolate frogs than the chocolate frogs. I forgot to eat the chocolate frogs.

ROBYN - I think this is a really important issue because it's quite controversial and you don't often hear autistic people talking about it.

[Singing] One, two, three, four. Welcome to the Robyn, Jamie and Lion BBC podcast! [Music]

ROBYN - Hello and welcome to the Robyn, Jamie and Lion show. My name's Robyn.

JAMIE - And I'm Jamie. And for those who are wondering, the Lion is the large fluffy lion that lives in my backpack, but more on him later.

ROBYN - So, what are we doing on the BBC Ouch podcast feed? Well, Jamie and I are both autistic adults, and a few weeks ago we did a podcast takeover and people really liked it, and so they've invited us back for more.

JAMIE - Oh dear, this is going to be quite an eventful thing. We got a lot of really positive feedback and we've been asked to share a little bit of it here by our lovely producers. So, Robyn, of the feedback we've been given which bit of feedback did you like?

ROBYN - Well, I wanted to say hello to Archie, who is Barry Holmes' son, and he sent in a really lovely comment about wondering whether stimming is something that he will grow out of or if it will evolve as he gets older. Barry, I can't tell you because I can't read the future, but stimming can be very helpful.

JAMIE - Yeah, stimming is a good thing. Growing out of it implies that it's a young person's thing. It's not. Autistic adults stim just as much. But it's a really good question because I think a lot of people might think that stimming that is a bad thing; but overall I think me and Robyn would both agree that stimming is a very useful coping mechanism and a very useful thing in our lives.

ROBYN - So, stimming is repetitive behaviours, and they can range from hand-flapping to rocking to clicking the top of your pen. I did a survey of 100 autistic people and the top three reasons why people stimmed were to reduce anxiety, calm down and deal with overstimulated senses.

JAMIE - Yeah, my body for me just does it automatically. So, I think earlier when we first came into this rather fantastic recording studio I was a very happy-flappy person.

The favourite bit of feedback that I had was from a lady called Clare - hello Clare - who said, 'thank you for such an excellent programme. 14 minutes that has changed the way I think'. And I think that's a really amazing piece of feedback because part of the reason why we're doing this is to help give a different view on autism and autistic life, the lived experience of autism rather than autism from a text book - which I've just realised I'm actually repeating Robyn's strapline from her training there. Whoops, sorry about that Robyn.

ROBYN - That's all right. Anyway please spread the word about the Robyn, Jamie and Lion show. You can subscribe to us via Apple podcasts and other podcast providers. You can also find BBC Ouch on Twitter. And we'll be lining up some guests from next month onwards, but we're not giving you any clues, so please do share our podcast so that more people can hear us. And we really hope you enjoy it. And please do get in touch with us. The Twitter handle is @bbcouch. Email [e-mail], or you can find us on Facebook.

JAMIE - Well, you've just read my bit of the script there.

ROBYN - Sorry.

JAMIE - But I was distracted by the numbers written on my microphone so I think we'll get away with that.

[Music]

Our topic for the day, our special topic is special interests and obsessions. Robyn, tell us about special interests and autism in general.

ROBYN - You might have heard about special interests before, and it's important to just clarify that we're not talking about obsessions that relate to OCD. OCD is a mental health condition and it has two components: an obsession, for example cleanliness, and a compulsion, such as having to wash your hands five times and fearing what will happen if you don't do that. That's a mental health condition, and people who have OCD need support and understanding. That isn't what we're talking about. We're talking about special interests as they relate to autistic people.

A special interest is something that an autistic person really focuses on. And they might change over the person's lifetime, but generally what makes it a special interest is the intensity i.e. how much time they're spending on it, but also where the focus is. So, for example a person might be really interested in fashion but they might specifically be interested in different stitching types.

JAMIE - I tend to find that I get two types of obsession: I get things that have been so far lifelong but they fluctuate backwards and forwards. So, for example for me mountain bikes and technology: when I was a kid I used to know the spec of every single bike in the bike shop and I used to absolutely obsess on it. I could tell you the materials that everything was made from and how much it weighed and how much it cost and what it's RRP was and what you could actually buy it for online etc. etc. etc. And I used to bore people to death about it. So, they're lifelong and I still go back to that obsession from time to time. Similar to technology: I work in technology and that's given me a good skill base.

But then I also get these short intense and specific obsessions where something just catches my mind for a while and it becomes a focus. So, one that I've had recently is machining, mills and lathes. What will tend to happen is I'll tend to pick up a specific thing. So, I'll be learning about lathes or mills and I'll learn the difference between 2.5 demilling and 3 demilling.

ROBYN - What's 2.5 demilling?

JAMIE - Okay, if you're milling an object you work in flat surfaces, so sometimes what will happen is rather than have a smooth curve you'll kind of do lots of 2D cuts going down in layers, and that gives you that kind of stepped approach, and that's 2.5 demilling. It's building a 3D object out of lots of 2D shapes. You can do it using a square-ended mill as well as if you want a curve on something you need a round mill or a ball-ended mill, and they wear out quite a lot quicker.

I'm trying not to obsess, but you might have noticed I've started bouncing up or down already. And I'm currently thinking about carbide versus high-speed steel, but I'm not going to bore you with those details.

ROBYN - So, how did you discover milling?

JAMIE - It's all the fault of a friend of mine, Olly. He showed me a YouTuber called This Old Tony who was milling a set of lathe chucks, and I was like, 'woo!' and some light came on in my head, and before I've known it I was spending three hours a day on YouTube. It's how I go to bed at night at the moment. I find going to sleep really difficult so I sit there, turn on YouTube, go to someone like NYCCNC and I watch three or four hours of milling tutorials. I've not really touched a mill yet, but I'm hoping to at some point.

But what might actually happen is the obsession might wear out before I get round to actually using any of the knowledge. And then in three years' time someone will mention something and I'll go, 'woo, that's a nice carbide-end mill'.

It can get really bad, or it can get really entertaining. So, over the weekend somebody bought me some chocolate frogs and I was far more interested in how they would have machined the mould for the chocolate frogs than the chocolate frogs. I forgot to eat the chocolate frogs because I'd gone away and started googling making chocolate moulds.

ROBYN - Oh. I know you've got something that's been to space. Was that milled?

JAMIE - This wasn't milled, no. So, another one of my obsessions is space shuttles and space engineering. And I have in my hand - and I'm waving at the microphone, because this makes for great radio - a cushion from the mid-deck bay of a space shuttle. It's been to space three times.

ROBYN - Wow!

JAMIE - I'll just hand it over to you so you can have a feel.

ROBYN - Ooh.

JAMIE - It's basically what was happening was at launch the helmets in the locker bays were rattling and breaking, so NASA being NASA they went, okay we need to do something. So, they basically got some spacesuit material, some foam and some Velcro and they stuck these cushions inside the mid-deck, so as it took off they wouldn't rattle and break. And then when the space shuttle programme came to an end in I think it was 2013, 2014 after Atlantis' first flight - sorry, I'm trying not to bore you with details - they sold everything. And they had all of these going spare, they made something like 53 of them, and I was on eBay at two o'clock in the morning one day and I couldn't really help myself. So, yeah the thing you're holding now has been to space three times. It's gone to 17,503 miles an hour. It's been to both

Space Station Meer and to the International Space Station. Oh this thing is amazing!

ROBYN - It's very difficult to describe, but it's a square piece of foam, then it has a cover over the top of it which is kind of like the kind of cover or kind of fabric I suppose that maybe you might find on a waterproof coat. And then it has strips of Velcro, the soft side is on, I guess that this is the front.

JAMIE - I'm really sorry to interrupt you, I can't help myself. The soft side of Velcro would be the hooks.

ROBYN - Okay.

JAMIE - And the other side's the… yeah, sorry.

ROBYN - Okay. So, it's got a rough side and then…

JAMIE - Hooks.

ROBYN - Yeah, the hooks. Jamie, how much did it cost?

JAMIE - How much did it cost? I'm in two minds of telling you a number or telling you what else I could have bought. I probably could have bought an iPad for the money, but I decided I'd buy something that went to space instead.

Oh yeah, and the cost to produce: I believe the programme was something like £8 million to produce 53 of them because they had to test them. It's got a serial number stamped on it. And in actual fact it's the serial number that's interesting because it's tracked all the way through their inventory systems from the day the manufacturer made it to exactly what cabinet, in what cupboard it sat in for five years between flights. It carries its own history with it, and I think that's part of why it is so appealing to me compared to like buying coins that were flown on a space shuttle. I don't care; they're just coins. That thing it had a purpose.

And what I really love about it is it can still continue its purpose: it's still a bloody good cushion. I really like it. It's one of my most prized things, and when it came up on eBay I screamed and danced around the room like a loon.

ROBYN - Okay Jamie, here's what I think:

JAMIE - Oh.

ROBYN - I think this feels and looks like a laptop divider. It's cool, and here's the serial number for those of you that want to hear it…

JAMIE - No.

ROBYN - Oh okay. I can't tell you what the serial number is. Okay. Well, it's great that you have something that went to space and its production cost cost £800 million and it cost about 500 quid.

JAMIE - No, no, £8 million. And I'm not going to tell you how much it cost. Aha, excited.

ROBYN - That's great. Can I obsess about my obsession now?

JAMIE - Hey, the way that you just went, 'that's great' I hear that a lot from people! So, in the nicest way…

ROBYN - Jamie, it's super cool.

JAMIE - … tell us about your trumpet.

ROBYN - Okay. Actually it's really super cool, space is cool, but I don't know much about space. But I do know how to play the trumpet.

JAMIE - For people who are listening at home she's reaching for her trumpet which has a big silver thing in the end. What's the name of that thing?

ROBYN - The thing is called a Harmon mute, and it was made famous by Miles Davis. Well, I guess most people will have heard of a Harmon mute because of Miles Davis, but actually lots of trumpet players play with the Harmon mute, it's very common. And normally I'd play trumpet for effects, which I did bring with me, but I don't think Janet's going to let me near the mixing desk. And my favourite trumpet player is Andy Diagram from the band James. Oh, and his band Spaceheads are about to have an album out. It comes out on 7th November and you should go and check it out. They're called Spaceheads.

JAMIE - And for those listening at home, other albums are available.

ROBYN - Yes, that is true. Anyway I'll get on and play, shall I?

[Trumpet playing - and dog whining in the background]

JAMIE - Wow! Okay, lots and lots of questions. How do you do that for so long without dying? Because, like, how do you breathe?

ROBYN - I was breathing. How do I breathe? Well…

JAMIE - In and out I assume, but.

ROBYN - Yeah, in and out. I think after a while you kind of get so used to it that it just becomes very natural. I started playing when I was eight, but I do daily practice. I have to do these things called long tones where I play notes for a long time, and so that increases your lung capacity.

JAMIE - Listeners there may have noticed that Robyn enjoyed a duet with Deebee, who is Damon's guide dog, who's now settling back down. So, one of the things that comes a lot with obsessions is the idea of employability. I think we can both say we work within our obsessions: I work in technology, I was obsessed with technology; I'd say that it's one of those long-running ones. What are your thoughts around employability and obsessions, Robyn?

ROBYN - Yeah, I'd definitely think that obsessions or special interests can be very helpful for employment. A lot of my work is autism related, although music gets into that quite a lot. Like when I go into schools and stuff I bring my trumpet and I play to the kids and they really enjoy it. And looking at your reaction it looked like you enjoyed it. When we first came in I noticed a slight anxiety around loud noises, but because I was using my Harmon mute it was nice and soft.

It's very funny looking at you holding Lion above your head.

JAMIE - Yeah, the guide dog has taken an interest in Lion, who is stood on my lap. So, it's probably a good point to introduce Lion, isn't it?

ROBYN - Hi Lion, how are you?

JAMIE - Hey Lion. Lion says he's very well.

ROBYN - Have you seen any antelopes lately?

JAMIE - He hasn't, although a friend of mine did recently buy us antelope burgers to eat for a meal to celebrate my birthday, which was basically the best birthday present ever. So, for those wondering, the show is named the Robyn, Jamie and Lion show, and Lion is a large - actually I suppose Lion could be called an obsession, you know, he goes everywhere with me, he has done for well over ten years - he's a large part of my life. He's currently on top of my head because one of the dogs is very interested in what he might taste like.

So, going back to obsessions, although it is a bit weird sat in a recording studio with a Lion on my head.

ROBYN - But obsessions can sometimes be a bit of a problem.

JAMIE - Yeah, definitely.

ROBYN - Someone can get too focused on it, or the obsession to other people may seem inappropriate.

JAMIE - Absolutely. So, for example whereas when I was a kid being obsessed on mountain bikes was almost expected, if I'd been obsessed with girls' clothing or fine art or Barbie then it might have been taken very differently by people around me. And I think this can become a problem when obsessions, because they can take up such a huge part of our lives, they can start to impact others.

So, I've just been told about a case where an autistic person's obsessions was the…

ROBYN - Don't say a case. That sounds like…

JAMIE - Yeah, it does sound medical, doesn't it?

ROBYN - Say that you, maybe you could just say that you've heard about a parent talking to one of our producers and her son spends a lot of time in the bath and that means other people can't use the bath.

JAMIE - Yeah, well it's really interesting because I slipped into the medicalism of referring to it as a case because I wanted it to be a story of the autistic person, and not a story relayed by the parent. So, that's really interesting actually, isn't it, in the way that the medical language seeps into what we discuss?

Yeah, but this autistic young person their interest was staying in the bath all the time, and of course that has ramifications on other people. When I was a kid I'm sure, well I know my dad certainly got fed up of how often I broke my bike because I had no mechanical sympathy. So, if somebody said to me, 'you could probably jump your bike off of that 4ft high wall' I would, and then I'd break things. So, there is that whole side of how you can have an obsession that then has an impact on others.

And redirecting obsessions is really, really difficult because they're not something that are planned or intentional; they kind of come from my body to me - if that makes any sense.

ROBYN - Perhaps sometimes interests are around a sensory need. So, the first thing I thought about with the bath was, well the bathroom is a very specific space…

JAMIE - Uh-huh.

ROBYN - … as is the feeling of being sat in water. So, I was wondering about how the young person might experience that space, and if there are things that he or she could have in their life that would make them more comfortable the rest of the time.

JAMIE - Yeah. And it could be as simple as being in the bath as a time where they're only with another single person, and they find they're getting overwhelmed by lots of people, so a time of the day where, for one reason or another, there is only a single person there might appeal to them. So, sometimes it can be hard to tease out what the draw to an obsession or, as you prefer them, special interest would be.

I find the term special interest a bit odd, because the interest itself isn't special; the interest itself is relatively straightforward. It's just that I'll spend four or five hours on it a day whereas most people might spend 45 minutes. So, maybe intense interest or a…?

ROBYN - Yeah, I like intense interest. My thing with obsession is just that I worry that people will make a link between OCD, and I think that that's unfair for people who have OCD.

JAMIE - Absolutely.

ROBYN - And also it's misleading. But yeah, I like intense interests. That sounds good.

JAMIE - Because it's the intensity in that focus. I've recently being doing a software project - talking of employability, I'll hopefully get an income from this software project - and that was 400 hours of work that was done in ten-, 20-hour stabs. It dominated my life for three or four weeks and was everything I did, everything I thought about.

So, in one regard the intensive focus gives you opportunity to learn, to develop skills, to really move things forward but it also has that… one of the reasons I have support at home is for people to remind me to eat, because when I'm really obsessing on something people will have to say, 'look, it's dinnertime now, you need to eat now' because if I was on my own I'd obsess through to four o'clock in the morning and then not realise why I'm feeling ill.

So, Robyn, that's been a really amazing discussion around special interests. Is there anything you'd like to add before we wrap up?

ROBYN - Well, what I'll add is: find us on Twitter @bbcouch. You could email us [e-mail]. And we're on Facebook. And also thank you to every person who responded last time and who tweeted it and who shared it and who emailed and who got in touch with us. We really appreciated it, and we were also really surprised and very happy that our podcast was useful to people. And that comment that Clare Walker sent in really sticks with me.

So, thanks so much, Jamie.

JAMIE - Thank you.

ROBYN - And Lion and Janet and Damon and Emma and Ollie and Lucy. And, and, and Lucy's dog whose name I don't know.

LUCY - Olga.

ROBYN - Olga. And Damon's dog, which begins with a D.

JAMIE - Deebee.

ROBYN - Deebee, yeah, thanks to them as well. And thank you to the BBC. And thank you for listening. Bye.

JAMIE - Goodbye.

[Singing and music] BBC podcast!