Transcript: Hellblade Psychosis Story Mirrored Mine

This is a full transcript of Hellblade Psychosis Story Mirrored Mine presented by Beth Rose with Kathleen Hawkins and Niamh Hughes first broadcast on 20 April 2018.

BETH - Hi, it's Beth here from the BBC Ouch team. We've got a great podcast coming up for you today. It's about psychosis and the game Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. We do delve deeply into psychosis and one man's experience so if this is something close to you or you're not feeling too good about it at the moment then just come back to us another time and we'll see you soon.

Hello and welcome to the BBC Ouch podcast. Now, it's the game that started a lot of chatter, Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. It's picked up five Baftas, including Games Beyond Entertainment, amongst many other awards, and it's won a lot of plaudits for the way it depicts psychosis. If you've not heard of it yet then it follows Nordic warrior Senua on an otherworldly quest to rescue the soul of her dead lover. She hears voices, some helpful, some harmful, and has hallucinations which to her are real but actually represent an episode of psychosis.

Now, the gamers and experts all rate it, but how does it fare if you've experienced psychosis yourself? In the studio for today's Ouch podcast is me Beth Rose, lifelong Oucher Kathleen Hawkins.

KATHLEEN - Hi.

BETH - And you're a big gamer yourself, aren't you?

KATHLEEN - Yeah. And it's nice to be back.

BETH - Yes, welcome. And welcome also to new member of the Ouch team, Niamh Hughes.

NIAMH - Hello everybody, I'm really glad to be here.

BETH - And joining us from Peterborough is Danny Bowyer who has played the game and has also experienced psychosis. Hi Danny.

DANNY - Hiya.

BETH - So, first off it's the kind of word that's bandied around a lot, psychosis, but maybe not everyone knows what it means. So, Danny can you explain what psychosis is?

DANNY - Yeah. I think it's for me it's just a different level of perception, a different way of seeing things. From a clinical perspective, and I think the reason that terms like hallucination I find quite challenging is because it does suggest that it's not real, that it's not a reality; and to someone experiencing it it's very much a reality. So, when people refer to psychosis they're often referring to what I would refer to as seeing things that others don't and hearing voices.

BETH - They say psychosis comes with a few symptoms, like you say hallucinations, and delusions, people can hear voices.

DANNY - Yeah.

BETH - Which from an outsider sounds really invasive. But tell me a bit about how it's just a reality for you and what you hear or see or experience.

DANNY - So, for me I think when I first started to experience it, which would have been kind of almost ten years ago now, it was incredibly frightening. It was a case of it felt real, but also because I was being told it wasn't real there was this trap between the two things: I'm seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling, experiencing something and people are telling me it's not true. But in terms of the reality it is as real as everything else around me, and the voices that I hear are as real as the voices of someone who's sat right across from me, and the reality of being able to touch and hear and see things.

So, I think for me the perspective I've found most helpful and what really helps me to move forward in my journey was to think that the voices that I hear are just a different, a unique way of thinking, a manifestation of different thoughts and feelings: some of those would be positive things; some of those things would be able to notice and appreciate and encourage; and some of those were very kind of damning voices, really I think a manifestation of low self-esteem and hopelessness.

I think as well they all felt very much related to my experience, which again was important for me when I moved forward in my journey that I'd kind of grown up in a very strict religious background and there was a lot of kind of religious connotations to these things. I'd grown up in working class schools and family and heard the kind of low aspirations and low expectations that can come with that sometimes. So, I think it was a manifestation of not only my feelings about myself but all of the feelings and experiences that had been projected on me at that time.

BETH - Is this something that you experience just at certain times of your life if you're particularly stressed or do you have to live with it every single day?

DANNY - It's a kind of daily experience for me. At times when I do feel low or more stressed, I'm not sure whether I would describe it as it's more intense or actually whether I'm less able to tune out of it, but it does kind of peak up in those times. Things as well if I'm just very tired then it feels much more significant. But it is something that can be like a low background chatter throughout the day.

BETH - And what sort of things do these voices say? Is it just comments?

DANNY - It's a mixture between commentary and comments and sometimes kind of directive thinking. For example it might just be literally like a running commentary of what I'm doing at any given point. Sometimes it might be comments about me and what I'm doing, and as I said that can be negative or positive. Or it can be, you should do this, this is the next course of action for you. So, I think it links up, it kind of comments on the past, it lives in the present as well and also it's forward thinking; which is like I said the association between my voices and me, the same as I think about the past and I think about what I'm doing and I think about my future so do they, and they reflect that.

BETH - And doing this today this is a bit out of your regular daily life I'm imagining, so have you got voices at the moment commenting on this?

DANNY - Yeah.

BETH - What are they saying?

DANNY - I think a key thing for me is, the example I always give to people when I talk about my experience is if you imagine somewhere where there's a lot of chatter, where there's a lot of noise, so think about being stood in busy shopping centre or being in a nightclub and wanting to speak to one person and wanting to focus on one person, our perception can narrow and we can focus on what we want to focus on. So, for me I would have to consciously pay attention to the chatter of my voices to tell you what they're saying. And by doing that I'd have to zone you out a bit. So, for me it's a kind of switching between the two experiences: do I want to listen to that or do I want to focus on what I'm doing right now? And that's the kind of skill that I've built up that allows me to get on with day-to-day life really.

I think if I had to contest with everything at once then I wouldn't be able to hold a conversation or keep a train of thought. But the ability just to dampen the sound in the background, to say actually where does my attention need to be, what do I want to give myself to fully, and just having that awareness; so it's not a conscious engagement with that, that I'm aware that I'm experiencing it and it's happening. But the amount of time I actually give attention to it is kind of not significant anymore, unless I want to tune into it.

BETH - It's the voices that the games company, Ninja Theory, have focused on in Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice. They call it Binaural Technology, so basically if you're playing the game and you've got headphones on it feels like the voices are coming from all around you.

Kathleen you've played it, and as far as I'm aware you've not experienced psychosis.

KATHLEEN - No.

BETH - So, is this quite a disorientating game to play?

KATHLEEN - I was thinking about the game as you were talking there, and there are a few things that I did think in relation to playing. And it did get to the stage where the voices were interrupting my choices. So, I would be walking along and I would know, because the game makes it quite clear that you're supposed to be going a certain way, there's some fire at the end, the light is pointing down this path, and yet a voice would interject and say, she's going the wrong way. And a few times I found myself turning back and listening to those voices. And in the end I had to zone out of them a bit and not concentrate on what they were saying.

And it sounds as though that is very much an accurate portrayal of what you have to do every day, Danny. So, I think it's amazing to hear that from you.

When I first started playing it it was disorientating. It begins in quite a dark setting, in a kind of swamp like territory, and there are a lot of voices and they're all different kinds of voices and some of them are quite threatening and some of them are encouraging. And so it can be quite confusing I think; not scary, but tense. It builds the tension in the game.

I was interested though Danny in you saying that your experience is all of the senses, it's feeling, hearing and smelling, and that isn't something that the game is able to tackle. I think there are a number of simplicities about psychosis within the game that we can discuss.

DANNY - Yeah.

KATHLEEN - But those sensory elements seems like a very obvious one straight off.

DANNY- I think when I picture the voices that Senua hears, and like you said there are those things of what are you doing, you should turn back, that happen throughout the game, and if you picture, if I picture all of my voices as being like a council, and if I was going to make a decision and I wanted to hear the opinion of, I don't know ten, 15, 20 people I would choose then actually I think this is the best advice for me.

So, I think it does develop that skill of being able to say, well if I'm making a decision, if I'm moving forward in life and there are lots of different opinions coming towards me what do I want to listen to, what's most productive for me. I think that comes across well in the game that you do have to choose what to hear sometimes.

KATHLEEN - I don't know whether you find it simplistic though just to hear these voices?

DANNY - I think with the atmosphere that's created by the visuals of the game, coupled with very well recorded layered sound in terms of hearing voices, that for almost an introduction to that experience - and it is an experience that's incredibly unique for each individual, so there's absolutely no way that one game or one medium of anything or even me speaking now can represent the experience for everyone - but I think as an introduction to that, as a way of experiencing what that might be like I think it's very well done.

When I think about how people who hear voices are often portrayed in the media this is a very positive way compared to the often much more negative thing that's put across.

KATHLEEN - What made you want to play it? And did you have any reservations knowing that it would address some elements of psychosis?

DANNY - Yes. I mean, some people that I know where on the advisory panel of people that had experience for the game, so I was aware throughout its development what it was going to be. And I had massive reservations because I felt if it was going to be done it had to be done really right, and it could go so wrong. There were so many things that could have really cheapened the experience or made it into a novelty, or just the same as any other kind of little niche thing. So, when I first approached it I was very apprehensive, and I really wanted to like it because obviously it's not often that people make an effort to address something in a very honest and authentic way.

But I think it didn't take me long to feel very at ease with the experience. And I think because for me a lot of Senua's experiences mirrored mine in terms of it didn't feel like an overwhelmingly negative experience playing as Senua because I already had this skill around okay, I'm hearing a lot of different voices right now, who do I want to listen to, which of those voices is the one that's giving me hope. And that's the thing that I've always had to do. So, the fact that there was that voice - because so often the portrayals of people who hear voices are that they're all attacking, they're all negative - so to be able to say that actually this is very much like my experience, this is something that feels very human and very natural as opposed to, isn't hearing voices the worst thing ever and that must be awful for you, poor you, which is often what comes across. And actually it's just part of who I am and my day-to-day experience. It's not an affliction, it's not something I suffer with; it's who I am.

KATHLEEN - So, in my knowledge this is the first game that's been created that has brought in the opinions of health professionals and also people who experience psychosis. So it's the first one doing that. I think we have this thought that games always need to be fun and that's what they're designed to do, is to create a fun feeling. But actually they have the potential, and they do, create all kinds of emotions and artistic realms. They are as complex, if not more, than movies and books. So, to be able to get more games that deal with serious issues in a very nuanced and researched way it shows you the potential of what can be created.

DANNY - Absolutely. I think even something like the fact that Senua as a woman protagonist is still fairly rare within video gaming. The fact that she was portrayed well as a woman, as a person was important enough in terms of video gaming. But also the fact that yes, she was based upon people's real experiences and real expertise. And I think this is one of the kind of real steps towards showing people that whenever human beings express anything, whether it's a book, whether it's a film, whether it's music, what we're often trying to do is capture the human experience. And I think that's what the game does: it's a very human game. Even though the setting is very kind of fantasy based there are still things that we recognise. And I think that's what came across so well.

So, I think it is definitely a way forward. I think it shows the industry that it can do a lot more. I wish that this game had been around ten years ago, if I'm honest; that when I first started hearing voices and first entered the mental health services there weren't role models necessarily. There were role models the further I looked in real people, and people who spoke out positively about mental health and their experiences, but within literature, within film, within music there wasn't a whole resource to draw on to say, this person has this experience and they're saying that their life doesn't have to be over; someone who is a bit like you who has significant challenges, but they complete their quest.

BETH - Have any of your friends and family played the game and maybe understood a bit more about what you have to battle each day or live with each day?

DANNY - There isn't anyone actually directly who has played the game. I think it's something where I've encouraged people to sit down for five minutes and just listen through the headphones and just to kind of see how it feels: sometimes if I'm not with you fully then this might be why, this is what I'm experiencing.

So, I think it is a good way to maybe bring it to people's attention. But I think the key thing is not always looking for people to be empathetic, to say, okay I understand your experience; not, I feel sorry for you having to go through that. It's to play this game, you might understand and build connections and not misunderstand people.

I think ultimately it's a story of a human, it's a story of a person going on a journey, and if we think about Senua as a whole person hearing voices is just one part of that. And the same as for me, the same as my experience when playing that game was that okay she's hearing voices, but if that's the only thing you take away from the game then you're missing the human experience. By the time you start to play through the game is not a hearing voices simulator; I think what it does it gives you an authentic part of her experience, the way that she overcomes challenges, her thinking and her dialogue as well as the dialogue of the voices, so it's a complete experience.

BETH - Do you think this maybe marks a turning point in the games industry or do you think that this is just one of those flash in the pan things, people have been interested and excited about it, and if a whole raft of other games are released with similar intentions it might actually not do so well?

DANNY - I think there's the potential. It depends what people want from that experience. If it becomes a case of doing a game about mental health has been successful so let's do more games about mental health, and it's not done with the complete authenticity that Ninja Theory have done Hellblade with, then it will fall short.

I think if it encourages more people to want to talk about their experiences, to want to reflect them through gaming then I think it would be a good thing for it to expand for more people to address different elements. And if it can create a platform whereby we understand people as more whole beings, a much more holistic approach then it could be worthwhile. I think it would all depend on whether people were making something with very genuine intentions. And speaking to the right people as well I think, because hopefully the point of people talking about their experiences is to offer some hope and some inspiration to other people, to say I've been there or I've experienced something similar. If it paves the way for more people to make that journey then that's a good thing.

BETH - Ninja Theory did spend was it two or three years working with neuroscientists, mental health specialists, people have experienced psychosis and they've done documentaries along the side, so they've spent a lot of time, money and effort in doing this. And hopefully if there is another game in the future that sort of care and attention will be replicated, because I think that's probably what's won this game so many plaudits it seems across the board really.

KATHLEEN - Yeah, and it sets a precedent in that respect definitely about the amount of research and the nuanced experience that you can portray, which is just symptomatic of an industry which is growing. And so anything that can happen to bring forward more diverse games developers, writers, that's a great thing.

So, Danny's saying that he wishes this had been around ten years ago; well somebody now can play this game and they can also think, I can do that, I can portray my own experience. That is a great possibility for all types of different experiences. And some of them will fall short, but it's about calling it out when that happens as we would in any other industry.

NIAMH - Talking about calling something out and actually focusing on the more negative aspects of it, Danny I wanted to know do you know of any other people with psychosis, who have experienced psychosis and don't have the positive feedback that you've given us?

DANNY - I don't. I haven't spoken to anyone who has anything different to offer. I've obviously sought out reviews because I wanted to understand that my perspective was very positive and as you said the critical reception was very positive, I wanted to understand whether there were people that did feel alienated, that the game wasn't offering their perspective. But I think there are people who do feel that the use of those challenges could have been exploitative or that it didn't tell their story so therefore they felt alienated or marginalised by it. I think that's important that people do feel different ways towards the game, and it's not to say yes, everyone who has those experiences should feel like this is the best thing ever.

It's one of those things where people absolutely have the right to say if they feel like this game didn't represent them, and that's part of the individuality and uniqueness that comes with people speaking out and talking about their experiences. And I absolutely respect those opinions.

NIAMH - And I have read a couple of reviews from people who have psychosis that have been negative. There was one in particular that I thought was true of the game in that Senua is a very isolated character, you are only really experiencing her sense of the world as one individual. And everybody with mental illnesses exists within society, they have to operate with other human beings, they have to do mundane daily tasks, and that is something that isn't reflected in any way in the game. So, it's important that we note that not everybody thinks that this game was a positive portrayal.

DANNY - But I think it's making the complexity of the experience into something that everyone can access. It still puts it on a platform that's accessible to more people. I think it's important, otherwise I don't think we talk about any issues if we only said how can we do it in a way that's not exploitative. I think it's necessary to shed light on something. And we wouldn't be getting things out there, and I think there's often been a shame around talking about mental health. A group of people can't represent a whole experience, but if someone's trying to do something earnestly and with some real conviction and real passion then I think it's important that that's done.

BETH - Well, if you've played the game and been intrigued by our chat today then we do love to hear from you. You can get in touch with BBC Ouch in a whole variety of ways. We're on Facebook; just search BBC Ouch. We're on Twitter @bbcouch. We also do email [e-mail]. And as well as commenting on today's story if you've got any other stories you think we should be covering or you want to talk to us then do let us know and we always try to get back to you.

Thanks very much today to Danny Bowyer for chatting to us about the game and also your experience of psychosis. It was really interesting and it's really good I think to talk about it in the context of this game as it's had such a huge moment in the spotlight, and hopefully that will continue.

Thanks also to Kathleen, it's always lovely to have you in the studio. Hopefully it won't be so long next time. And also thanks to Niamh who's brand new and shiny and I'm sure you'll be hearing from her soon.

I'm Beth Rose, we love to hear from you, and speak to you soon.