Transcript of: Making sign language more beautiful

This is a full transcript of Making sign language more beautiful, as first broadcast on 21 September 2018 and presented by Damon Rose on the Ouch disability talk podcast.

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DAMON: Thanks for downloading Ouch. I'm Damon Rose and on this week's podcast I'm interviewing Paula Garfield, who is the Artistic Director of Deafinitely Theatre company. And that's Deaf - it's clever - D-E-A-F, as in deaf people, Deafinitely Theatre. She is also the Director of their current play, which started this week, the play called 4.48 Psychosis. And we'll learn what that 4.48 means a little bit later. I'm a little bit chilled by that, I have to admit. If you're feeling a little bit low this week, you may not want to continue listening, as the title of the play suggests, it's about mental health and there are some slightly difficult themes in there, so skip on past this one and listen to next week's podcast instead. So here's Paula Garfield telling us a bit about the production. She's speaking through her sign language interpreter who is called Kam.

PAULA: I think perhaps I'll start with telling you why I actually chose the play, you know. I would say that it's not all of the deaf community but there are lots of people in the deaf community who have mental health issues and one of the main reasons I believe for that is that 90% of deaf children have hearing parents who cannot communicate with them. I had that difficulty myself. I, I couldn't communicate with my parents, it was very difficult. And that's because of the medical issue, so doctors used to tell parents who were hearing don't communicate with your deaf children through sign language, it will affect their spoken language acquisition. So they would speak to me and I would try and lip read them, couldn't understand them. So, if you can imagine growing up with limited or no access to language, not understanding what's happening around you, that obviously affects your mental health. I remember personally, growing up and being frightened about what was happening around me and I couldn't get any answers from my parents. So, when I compare that situation to my children, who happen to be deaf and are fluent in sign language, I can have the normal back and forth conversations that you would expect from a parent and child, so their mental health is much better. And particularly amongst deaf men, some of the research I did showed that deaf people have a three times higher risk of mental health episodes than the general population, and men in particular in the deaf community.

DAMON: Gosh. Well, for some of those basic communication reasons that you were talking about just then, it's perhaps not surprising. Thinking back to your own background, being nurtured, growing up, belonging, that kind of thing, are these the things that you don't get so much of? Or how would you put it?

PAULA: I have to talk from my experience, but of course my experience is not unique, it's common. Let me give you a situation. You have a hearing family around you at the dinner table and everyone starts laughing. And as a deaf child you say what, what's happening here? You don't know. Now, I was very lucky. I, I have a deaf twin, my sister, and both of us had each other to support one another. You know, if one person was feeling depressed, the other person would talk to them. Can you imagine if I'd been alone? I think I would have got much, much worse in terms of my mental health. My mother now, who is 80-years-old, she tells me that she wishes that she'd learned to use British Sign Language so that we could have communicated back when I was a child. And-----

DAMON: And why didn't she? Can I ask why didn't she? Why wouldn't, why do parents find it difficult, do you think, to learn sign language and communicate with their children? What is the disconnect there?

PAULA: I think, I mean if you imagine, I mean I was born in 1967, Damon, right, you know - so 70s and 80s - if you think about the generation back then, the medical profession and the view, even the teachers, you know, we all looked at authority figures as, as having the correct opinion and that was it. We didn't challenge them. If the authority figures told you something, that was it. So my mother took medical advice and that was it. And unfortunately, she says now that when she looks at me signing away to my deaf friends in the deaf club or - she says wow, you know, so different from when you were growing up. I remember being at home and my aunties and uncles would visit me and they'd sort of point at me and say are you okay? And it was, that was it. That was the limit of the conversation. Then they'd turn to my mother and say oh, how's Paula getting on? No conversation with me directly, no interaction. Now, imagine if you've got, say, a deaf child who is confused about their sexuality or having problems at school or whatever it is, and they cannot communicate with their parents on those sort of issues. These are real difficulties. And this is why I strongly believe that, that language is absolutely crucial for deaf children, you know, it's essential for any child of course, but for deaf children in particular when it comes to their mental health.

DAMON: Let's go back to the play itself. It's a bilingual performance, isn't it, where there's a bit of sign language and there's spoken English in the play as well. So what's this, what's the, I saw VV mentioned on your website?

PAULA: Yes, yes, that's the - so let me explain. Let me explain it in a, in a summarised way really. I think, you know, I'm using a standard variety of British Sign Language. Of course, that has all of the facial expressions, non-manual features you'd expect from British Sign Language, all of the, it's structure and grammar. But when we're talking about theatre, when we're talking about performance, when you, as a hearing person, do a, a performance your voice changes, you think about your intonation, about the way you picture, about the cadence and rhythm so that people say, do you know that's a beautiful way of, of speaking. We have to do that visually, you know, we have to change the language that we use and the way that it is represented on stage so that it's beautiful, the same way a hearing person would do with their language, spoken language. So let me think of an example. If I said "I love you" in British Sign Language normally, and then I do it theatrically where I show the heart itself beating and then the heart comes out and I connect my heart to your heart, we've made a much more visual modality of, of how that is, how that language is being used.

DAMON: I'm trying to remember what I love you is in sign language. Obviously I'm blind myself, so sign language doesn't come naturally to me. so it's something like I - I'm pointing to myself - and then heart is it? You put your fist in front of your, your-----?

PAULA: So it's literally you point, point to yourself-----

DAMON: Yeah.

PAULA: On your chest.

DAMON: yeah.

PAULA: Yeah, that's the I. Now love is where you cross two hands over where you expect your heart to be, so both hands crossed over, that's right palms down-----

DAMON: Love, yeah.

PAUL: And then you, you point at the person.

DAMON: You.

PAULA: Now, you can take, you can point, or you can take those crossed hands from your chest and point them together at the person.

DAMON: OK.

PAULA: Now, what you do theatrically is you could take the heart out and hand it over to a person.

DAMON: Oh, I see.

PAULA: Now, of course, some sign language is iconic. In other words, hearing audiences see the sign that you use, and they know what it is, it's very obvious what it means. But when we're talking about emotions, abstract emotions, you have to think about things like anger and sadness and how to make them clear. One of the biggest challenges that we faced in the translation of Sarah Kane's work is the amount of time that it takes. We have had to really research and analyse her language and then put it in a way that is efficient but beautiful. And another issue we've had is captions, you know, how do we make sure that our hearing audience members can understand what is being said if it's not being voiced over?

DAMON: Yeah.

PAULA: This is a big challenge, you know, where do we put them? What do we choose? What is appropriate? Deaf people are very used to reading captions everywhere, whether they go to the theatre or the television, they put subtitles on. Hearing people don't tend to do that, you know. And one of the issues we've had is hearing people looking on the stage and seeing captions and their attention is diverted, you know, they forget to watch what's going on on the stage itself. So we have to really play with that and we have to think about how we get our hearing audience members to focus on our deaf performers, follow the journey and yet have the captioned part of the performance there too.

DAMON: Sarah Kane, the writer, is no longer with us. She had mental health problems and died at the age of 28. We've been circling this for ages and I've taken you right off the subject, the story. Tell us about the story of the play. What is it? Who are the characters?

PAULA: Right. So Sarah Kane obviously - I feel like this play is actually a very long suicide note or a long suicide letter where she's expressing herself and then she, she passes away. And I think in terms of this piece, we recruited two hearing actors to play the doctor, as it were, in this note or letter and two deaf actors who play deaf patients.

DAMON: So it's set in a hospital?

PAULA: Yes. We've, we've set it in a hospital. And what we have is the two deaf actors really going through the process that Sarah Kane went through of explaining her feelings and her thoughts, the journey of a person who is depressed or who has mental health issues and is heading towards suicide. Really, the message that we got from the text was the, the real lack of understanding that people have. There's a really powerful part of the piece where she talks about the lack of connection between her mind and her soul. And this is a really powerful message that we've, we've tried to, tried to emphasise. One of the things about this story is that the message we think is that it's a battle every day for people with mental health issues just to live. And you can understand to some degree why people want to be free of that struggle. We also explore the communication breakdowns that take place between a doctor and patient, particularly hearing and deaf. So Sarah Kane, she said that she'd met a lot of different mental health professionals, a lot of doctors, a lot of people who gave her medication actually, and she felt that a lot of people weren't really looking into what she was feeling and thinking, the medication wasn't the answer. And we, we strive to reflect that in our piece.

DAMON: Moving away from this a little bit, Paula, you, so you're the, you're the Artistic Director of Deafinitely Theatre company. You're directing this play 4.48. And I want to ask you what that 4.48 is in a minute, before this interview ends I'll definitely ask you that. I must remember to ask you that. I don't know if you've seen, but in the news this week broadcasters - and this feels quite related to what you do - broadcasters have pledged to double the number of disabled people on and off screen, so that's in the production staff and onscreen characters. I wonder, do you welcome that? And that's by 2020.

PAULA: Well I, I definitely welcome it. I, I think about the deaf community and they are massively under-represented in television. Now, I would say that in the theatre world deaf people are becoming more visible, but not in television, massively under-represented at the moment. I also have concerns about the future because the pool of deaf actors has to continue to grow. They need to be trained. Throughout the UK - this might surprise you - there is no professional training course aimed at deaf actors or professionals in the acting profession, nobody provides that. So can you imagine these deaf children having dreams of becoming actors-----

DAMON: Yeah.

PAULA: Or other professionals in the media, and not having any training.

DAMON: So the TV companies want more actors, they want more deaf and disabled actors on screen. But you're saying that there aren't any courses around to train deaf actors in particular?

PAULA: Absolutely.

DAMON: So, so there seems to be, there's a bit of a, a problem there then. How, how are we going to get around that problem?

PAULA: So there's, what I know is that up in Glasgow, the Royal Conservatoire had established three years ago a course, and they brought 12 students in for a three-year course. Now, imagine, 12 students. Now, that was a wonderful idea, but that is established recently, three years ago, and it's actually aimed at Scotland. So for England there isn't anything. Now, the Arts Council funded us actually recently for us to set up a new hub programme so that we could actually do it, that we could bring hearing and deaf actors together and train them. And we're working with RADA to do that, to try to put together a programme to, to mix hearing and deaf actors together and to train them. You know, whether we have deaf professionals who are currently working who have skills that they can pass on to a new generation, for instance visual vernacular, or the ability to translate English text into a theatrical form of BSL. This is a big problem, you know, for, for deaf actors. And it's very time consuming. And I remember actually when I first started, Damon, in acting myself one of the big challenges was how on Earth do I translate this English text into sign language, you know, just like a hearing actor gets work on their spoken language, we need to do that with deaf actors. So we've set up workshops every single Wednesday with, with RADA.

And one of the things is it's essential from our point of view that, that actors, deaf actors in particular are professionally trained and that they get access to other professionals. Eventually, my aim is that we set up a course that is specifically designed for sign language users, whether that's hearing or deaf, who want to act, who want to be in theatre or television or radio or podcasts or whatever it is. I think historically it is extremely important that deaf members of the professions feel confident in their own identity. Are they happy with using sign language? Do they know who they are? Because that is one of the key things that will help them to become skilled actors. And I think as well, another thing is that we have to teach our deaf actors to learn different acting techniques. You know, some of our deaf actors struggle with understanding or learning the different intonations and voice tricks that hearing actors have got, you know. Another thing is that - you might not know this, but within the UK there are regional sign language variations. So Scottish sign language has differences to some of the regional variations in Britain. Irish sign language is completely different to BSL, to British Sign Language. So you know, learning those regional variations as well is very important, and that has to be incorporated into our programme.

DAMON: Can you give me an example of a regional difference?

PAULA: Let me think. Okay. So here in London one of the ways that we sign numbers, the number 12 for instance, which I've just signed, in the north is signed very differently with just one finger and one thumb. Whereas in London it's two fingers and a thumb. So that's just one example in numbers that are regional differences.

DAMON: Why would something as basic as numbers be so different across the country?

PAULA: So it's, it's a community thing. I think part - if you think about hearing people with your accents, if you're brought up, I don't know, I'm told if you're brought up in the East End of London, my mother was, and she has a strong East End accent, right. And it's exactly the same, that in the regions, each region has developed its own sort of vernacular. And they, and they learn it from their local members. I'll give you an example; toilet. In the olden days, a toilet used to have a cistern on the wall with, you know, with the chain that you'd pull. That's the old sign for toilet.

DAMON: Not that, not so old, I had that when I was a child. Not that old it feels. But yeah-----

PAULA: Yeah, exactly right, right. But the sign now has totally changed. They don't use that sign anymore. Telephone is another one.

DAMON: Hang on, so what is the toilet sign now? What-----?

PAULA: Oh, there's different ones. So you use, you put your middle finger on your chest, which is also a sign for toilet now.

DAMON: Really?

PAULA: Yeah, yeah, toilet. However-----

DAMON: That's very discreet, a very discreet sign.

PAULA: Yeah. Other people put, use the palm of their hand and they put it up against their mouth so it, actually as if you're shouting out by the side of your face, yeah, like that. And that's another sign for toilet.

DAMON: Because when I was a kid, because I know sign language is very expressive, I remember being at primary school and if one of the kids really, really wanted to go to the toilet, they'd sort of grab their groin and jump up and down. So that wouldn't be how sign language would do it. That seems like perhaps a bit more obvious way of doing it.

PAULA: Yeah. I, you know, I, I'll be honest with you, Damon, I remember I used to say to hearing people, I used to say I need the toilet, I need the toilet, I'd be signing to them, I couldn't. The teachers wouldn't understand what I was saying. So I'd mime pulling my trousers down and say look, I need the toilet, or mime pulling my skirt down, you know. And they'd say, oh, I know what you mean now. And off I'd go running to the toilet.

DAMON: Got you. Sorry to lower the tone. Sorry about that. So back to the play quickly. 4.48 Psychosis. What's this 4.48 then? I said I'd remember to ask you.

PAULA: Well this is interesting because there's lots of perspectives on what this actually means. Our group feels that 4.48 is the time that the author kept waking up and the time that the author kept thinking about repeatedly. However, there's another opinion within the group, that many people commit suicide around that sort of time early in the morning. So, you know, there's, there's different interpretations, but 4.48 is a very strong symbol.

DAMON: Gosh. Serious stuff. Before you go then, where and when can we see your play?

PAULA: The play is being performed at the New Diorama Theatre, not far from the BBC offices here. We opened on 18 September and we finish on 13 October. So I hope that you will come and see us.

DAMON: Lovely. Paula, thank you.

PAULA: It's been my pleasure. Thank you very much for inviting me and thank you for the chat.

DAMON: That was Paula Garfield from Deafinitely Theatre company. If you get a chance to pop along and see it, do so. Thank you for listening. I've been Damon Rose and if you want to email us, you can, [e-mail], [e-mail]. You can tweet us @bbcouch. And you ind us on Facebook as well. Until next week, goodbye.

[UPDATE: This transcript was amended on 09:57 on 25 September 2018. Previously it said that Paula pulled her trousers/skirt down when she was young in order to quickly communicate to hearing people nearby that she needed to go to the toilet. This has been corrected to show that she mimed this, she didn't actually do it. A minor interpretation issue we have now corrected in the above text]

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