Transcript of 'You can't go there, you're disabled'

This is a transcript of the BBC Ouch disability talk podcast broadcast on 5 October 2018. It is presented by Kate Monaghan and Simon Minty with guests Tanyalee Davis and Raymond Antrobus.

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Jingle: Ooooouuch [female voice swells up to say the word Ouch loudly and in a slightly moody tone]

KATEWelcome to Ouch, the disability podcast that isn't here to change the world, it's just here to blot out that constant screaming sound in your head. I'm Kate Monaghan.

SIMONAnd I'm Simon Minty. This is our monthly round table programme where we invite guests into the studio and get deep into conversation. And this month we've got two guests. Sitting opposite me right now is poet, Raymond Antrobus.

RAYMONDHey.

SIMONHi there.

RAYMONDHello.

SIMONAnd your first full collection of poems, 'The Perseverance', has just come out.

RAYMONDYes.

SIMONWe'll be talking more about that, growing up as a deaf, mixed race person in Hackney, and hearing a poem from you later.

RAYMONDGreat.

KATEBut first. Now, poor love. It's comedian Tanyalee Davis.

TANYALEEWah-wah… [slow trombone sound + laughter]

KATEWho was recently all over social media, and proper big TV media, after she had an encounter with an unhelpful guard on a train who tried to move her mobility scooter, and publicly humiliated her in doing so.

RAYMONDBoo.

KATETanyalee, how are you feeling?

TANYALEEOh, I'm great now, yes.

KATEOkay. Well we're going to get to your story in a second, but this happened a couple of months ago.

TANYALEEYes. It got really intense.

KATEOkay, well tell us about it. What happened?

TANYALEEOkay. So I was doing a comedy show in Plymouth and my partner and I were travelling back from Plymouth to London, Paddington Station. I did not book assistance in advance because the JourneyCare website was down, and I'm very frustrated with the whole booking system. So it turns out there was only one disabled space on the train and it was in first class. They said if a wheelchair user shows up they have priority over you. Because I have a mobility scooter it's not umbrella-d under the same laws.

So I was like oh gosh, here we go again. So I get on the train and he said, "You're not allowed to sit on the scooter." I'm like, "Okay, fine." So Kevin, my partner, sat directly in front of the scooter, I sat adjacent in the back of four chairs. It got to an hour into the journey, there's a hustle and bustle, the guard comes over, tries to move the scooter. I'm like, "What are you doing?" He's like, "There's a woman with a baby pram…"

KATEHold on, hold on. So he's trying to move… So, did he sit on the scooter? How did…?

TANYALEENo, he was like walking it back and forth, trying to like push… I had people's luggage on top of the scooter because there was no space for anybody to get by. So I said because I wasn't sitting in it that anybody could put… this man specifically could put his suitcases on top of the scooter. And so the guard was trying to like, "Well, does it collapse? Does it move?" And I was like, "Stop trying to move the darned thing."

SIMONI have a mobility scooter and the amount of times people try and move it. And, "Why don't you just ask, because I can tell you how to do it?" They think they can do it, and it's… yeah.

TANYALEEYeah, it you try to push it…

SIMONIt's locked.

TANYALEEThe back wheels are locked, but if you try to push it, it really strips the gears and you can damage the scooter. So at this point, I had had incidents leading up to this, like a week earlier, and I was just so frustrated, so I said to Kevin, "Here's my camera, you need to videotape this, because this is so wrong." I mean, at least if it was a wheelchair or another…

KATEOkay, so who came on? What happened?

TANYALEEThe guard came on and said there was a woman with a baby pram who had a child…

SIMONDisabled baby?

TANYALEENo!

SIMONWell, were they playing top trumps?

TANYALEEWell, she had like some sort of, not a cast, but some sort of like bandage on her arm.

SIMON[laughs]

KATELike a splint?

TANYALEEAnd she was like, "I can't hold my vagina trophy," and… Am I allowed to say that?

SIMONSure. Hang on, did she really say that or is that you adding…?

TANYALEENo.

SIMONYou're a stand-up comedian so you're…

TANYALEEYes.

SIMONOkay, I'm glad I explained that.

TANYALEEOh, because obviously this child's so precious she can't hold it for the journey and it needed to sit in the baby pram, but she demanded to have the space and she kept saying, "I get that seat." And the seat that Kevin was sitting in was not reserved, so technically her seat was reserved in the bank of four.

SIMONBut we've had this big argument on buses haven't we? And people get so confused because that space that's got a wheelchair sign on it, they think it's for a baby pram.

TANYALEEYeah.

SIMONBut that's sort of been clarified now. You're saying this is on trains.

TANYALEEBut the guard was so adamant about it and so…

KATESo what did he want you to do? He wanted you to move?

TANYALEEWell, he wanted to either pack it up and try to put the scooter somewhere else, and it's like, there's not enough room for baggage, so there's no room to put the mobility scooter. So I backed up into the vestibule…

SIMONVery good use of language.

RAYMONDHmm-hmm.

SIMONIs that the bit in between?

TANYALEEBut there's a toilet on one side, so I'm either blocking the toilet or I'm blocking the door. So he kept saying, "I'll move it, I'll move it." And I'm like, "You're not going to move my scooter," and we are arguing. I kept saying, "Why? Why do I have to move for a baby pram?" And then he was like, "Where are your papers? Where are your papers?" I'm like, "Okay, gestapo."

KATEPapers for what?

TANYALEEI don't know. I figure it was like maybe a permit or whatever, but…

KATEPermit for what?

TANYALEEFor the mobility scooter. Some train lines demand permits. But I mean I didn't ask for it before I got on so who cares really? But the fact is I had priority over a baby pram, that's the end of it.

SIMONDo you think he just got a bee in his bonnet about you not having done the process properly? So whatever excuse he could he was going to try and oomph you out of this space?

TANYALEEYeah. And then because we stood up to him… That's the problem in this country, you try to stand up for yourself and then they're like, "Okay, we're calling the police."

SIMONWhoa!

TANYALEEAnd so he was like he went from zero… And because we were videotaping he was really ticked off. And so he's like, "Okay, we're stopping." And then my Spidey senses went off and I had a feeling something was going to happen and he got over the tannoy and he said, "We're going to be delayed indefinitely in Taunton because the woman in the mobility scooter is causing problems. She's videotaping me and threatening to put it on the internet." So I caught the latter part of that on video, you can hear him saying it over. And I've had people that were on that train contact me going, "I thought it was a joke, I was absolutely humiliated for you."

KATEI mean, you were quite upset about this at the time weren't you?

TANYALEEOh.

KATEI mean you're talking about it in quite an amusing fashion now. As a comedian that's what you do, but…

TANYALEEOh yeah, yeah. No, at the time I was exhausted, I was so… At this point when he announced it over the tannoy. We were sitting between two first class carriages anyway so, you know, you're amplified and you just feel kind of like the distain from people in first class, like, "You're ruining my journey!" you know. And then the fact that we're going to get delayed indefinitely. People were going to miss their connections. So now I'm panicking, I'm just like what can I do to make this…?

KATESo what happened? Did the police come? Did the train stop?

TANYALEEThe train did stop, we were delayed at least 20 minutes. No police, but he also wouldn't let us off. Like he kept saying… and they called a supervisor. Some women came from standard class and were like, "What can we do to help? We can put you beside us over by the catering…"

SIMONSo the public were saying, "How can we help?"

TANYALEEYeah, yeah. And I was like, "That's fine," I said, "I don't care where I go, I'm just like let's get this train moving," because at this point I was so upset that, you know, I just wanted to crawl into a hole and die.

SIMONYou're pretty resilient, I've known you for a long time, and it takes a fair old sort of a bit of a nightmare for you to get really upset. Where you angry? Were the public angry?

TANYALEESo when I got home I… Well, we missed our connection to Norwich, got home quite late, and I was just exhausted emotionally. So I was talking about it on Facebook so somebody recommended that I make a video. So, you know, I'm not one for making it, but I sat in my bedroom and I just talked about what happened and then I got really emotional about it, because the feeling of humiliation, it just took me right back in there. And then I kind of went like, "You don't understand, like ever since I've been coming to this country I've felt more disabled than anywhere else in the world."

SIMONAnd where are your origins?

TANYALEEYeah, well I'm originally from Canada and I spent a lot of time in North America in general where, you know, there's so many laws and things that help people and you just have a lot more freedom. And coming to the UK it was always like, "You can't go there, you're disabled," you know, "that's against health and safety. Where's your carer?" Like I can't be out by myself, I need to have a carer. So out of frustration I posted the video and then within 48 hours we had left for Amsterdam. Kevin and I were trying to go on a little holiday and I just ended up being attached to my phone for 48 hours doing interviews and it just blew up. It was crazy.

SIMONHave you got a data roaming contract? [laughter]

TANYALEENo.

SIMONOkay.

KATEGoing back into the train, so the mum was really apologetic to you, she…

TANYALEEAfterwards. Like it took another half an hour, 45 minutes, for her to say anything. At the beginning she was quite aggressive about us moving. Because I think she thought it was Kevin's scooter. She didn't see me because my back was towards her. And, you know, I think…

SIMONAnd Kevin's average sized?

TANYALEEYeah, average size, and just going like, "This isn't right." And he had a bandage on his arm as well, you know, because he had hurt himself. So it was just this whole… I mean the guard absolutely had a meltdown.

SIMONBut you've been doing this Scooter Girl campaign prior to this, and this has kind of really blown it up and made it huge.

TANYALEEYes.

SIMONIs there a kind of prejudice against scooter users? What's going on? You clearly need to use something, why…?

TANYALEERight. Well yeah, I think there is a sort of a stigma attached to them. Now that I've been doing a lot more press it comes out that it's like, "Oh well, what about those people that don't need scooters? They're just, you know, morbidly obese and duh, duh, duh." It's like well, A, first of all you don't know their circumstances, they might be disabled and then end up gaining weight because of a disability. So yes, there are some people who abuse it, but anybody can buy a mobility scooter, but I don't think people are just going, hey, I'm going to go out and buy a mobility scooter just to cause problems. You know, there's too many things that are attached to this and there's different classifications.

KATEI notice that you and Simon, you're both short and you both use mobility scooters, whereas I, when I use a wheelchair I use an electric wheelchair. So why would you got for a mobility scooter over an electric wheelchair?

SIMONAnd there is a bit I kind of… when I use a scooter it's almost I'm not proper disabled. If you're in a wheelchair, 'proper' disabled, scooter, you're just playing with it.

TANYALEEYeah.

KATEYeah, it's a different attitude.

SIMONOh hang on, you're not meant to agree with them. Are you…?

KATENo, it's a different…

SIMONOh, you're agreeing with the sentiment? Yeah, yeah.

KATEI'm agreeing with the sentiment, that there's a different attitude towards you when you use a mobility scooter. Because sometimes if I'm on my own going shopping in a shopping centre I can't get my wheelchair out of my car so I go to Shopmobility and use a scooter. And it's very different.

SIMONMy scooter, £600, $900. Electric wheelchair?

KATEIt was £1,500?

TANYALEEYeah, well that's it, the cost is a big thing for a lot of people. And the manoeuvrability and sort of like mobility scooters, this comes apart in four pieces and will fit in almost any boot of the car. And they're smaller. And now they have increased the turning radiuses and stuff like that. Like the technology involved with mobility scooters has really advanced, but the spacing and the attitude and all that towards them has not improved.

SIMONThe understanding I think, because there are three types aren't there, and so whenever I talk about my scooter I always say, "It's the small one, it's the tiny one." And I suppose I'm kind of being a bit naughty, I'm trying to say, "It's not the massive one and I'm not an obese person sitting on it." I have to kind of almost justify my position.

TANYALEEYeah, and that's it right now, and that's part of the thing I'm doing with the Scooter Girl campaign, is when I talk to train companies, like with Greater Anglia right now they have a scooter policy but they're asking me to be part of defining it and making it just easier to understand. Because right now it's super big, you know, and…

KATEIs this something you get a lot then? If you've got a campaign going this clearly isn't the first time that…

TANYALEEOh no, I mean like I said, I started this in 2010 because up in Edinburgh they wouldn't let me on the buses. Both the bus lines had a complete scooter ban. So there I am at four o'clock in the morning and it's chucking down with rain and all the buses are like, "No, no, you've got batteries, what if it breaks down?" I'm like, "I'll get off and I'll push it," you know.

SIMONI love the fact… Tanyalee is a stand-up comedian and if I'm on a stage with her now she's got quite a deep understanding of rolling stock which makes her angry. I'm like what is happening?

TANYALEEYeah, I've leapt into a new world, it's crazy.

SIMONRaymond, you were making lots of sympathetic noises. Where are you at on Scooter-gate?

RAYMOND[laughs] So I spend a lot of time in the States. I've worked in deaf schools in the UK as well as the States, as well as the Caribbean, and I've seen as a deaf person the difference in attitude towards, even the word, deaf, and how it has a different kind of gravity, a different kind of weight in those different places. Yeah, there's so many overlaps.

SIMONDo you mean it's more respectful?

RAYMONDThere's a taboo. I think in the UK, I think there's a serious…

SIMONA stigma.

RAYMOND…behind the times taboo, in a lot of ways. It wasn't until I went to the States and I was working with CODAs, children of deaf adults, and deaf young people where I had my first ever positive interaction from strangers about my hearing aids. I was there and these young people would come up to me and say, "Oh, you have hearing aids? Cool. My dad has those. Cool. My granddad is thinking about those. Oh, okay. How high can they go?" As opposed to here growing up, like I've had a hearing aid since I was six, seven years old, it was always this hidden thing and as soon as it's noticed… Like you were talking about classifying.

KATEBut I thought that we were kind of quite advanced in the UK with disability.

TANYALEE[laughs]

RAYMONDI mean, it's so funny because…

KATEIs that completely wrong?

RAYMONDWell, because we were just… Just before the show we were talking about our technology, you know, you were both talking about your scooters and we were talking about our hearing aids, and I remember thinking like wow, this is the future. Digital hearing aids have only been around on the NHS for the last seven years, and they are so different to the hearing aids I grew up with. And people often say, people who knew me from when I was a kid say, "Oh, how has your hearing got better? How's your speech got better?" And I say well, "Speech therapy, technology, assistance," but then that still all happens in isolation. You know, how many people are going to be listening to this conversation that don't have a kind of personal investment to hear us?

SIMONIt's a very good point, and it's the classic, there's rules, there's regulations, there's environment, but it's this attitudinal bit. Then you're both saying it feels very different here to perhaps the States.

RAYMONDYes.

TANYALEEAbsolutely. Yeah, I would agree with that.

KATEIn what way do you think?

TANYALEEWell, I just… It's still like in the Dark Ages I think, disability, and it's funny because like Channel Four and BBC and a bunch of the TV, you know, they're trying to be quite inclusive. You know, I mean this show, these are great outlets, but then when it comes to day to day stuff and day to day attitudes the public really just puts blinders up or they just don't acknowledge or you're made to feel like you're being an inconvenience. You know, I'm just trying to get from A to B, you know, I'm sorry I'm taking up a little bit extra space because you can't put your rolly bag somewhere.

SIMONBut that space is meant for disabled people, that's the bit that's bizarre.

TANYALEEI know, but they make you feel, they make you feel that you're doing something wrong and it's very frustrating.

KATEAnd so what's been the outcome of your situation?

TANYALEEWell, so this is why, you know, it's one of those things. We were talking about resilience, and taking a bad situation and turning it into good. So now all of a sudden the Scooter Girl campaign has gained some traction. It's not just for people with mobility scooters, it's anybody with a disability that's having issues on public transport. So I've sort of created this little community via Twitter, via my Facebook Scooter Girl campaign, and now people are sending me news articles or they're coming to me saying, "Listen, I had this particular incident with this train company, they're not listening to me, my complaint's not being heard."

And right now I'm like a conduit between people and the train companies and I'm able to make connections and say, "Listen, this visually impaired guy and his dog ended up having to sit on the floor because they were not properly assisted on the train that they had booked." So I've contacted the train company who I have a relationship with now and ended up setting up a meeting with that couple and myself and chatted about what can we do to make improvements. Because clearly I don't know about visual impairment, so that requires a different level of assistance than say what I need. So I wanted to bring everybody together.

SIMONYou're the kind of reluctant activist, you've been forced into this position.

TANYALEEYeah.

SIMONI remember reading on the BBC website, because you're a friend, and it said, 'And the British Government have said the treatment of Tanyalee has been most inappropriate.' And I'm like, oh my goodness me, the British Government are now talking about Tanyalee.

TANYALEEIt's great.

SIMONSo in your campaigning, if you could say this is the thing I want, the magic wand, what's the kind of one thing that you would love to change?

TANYALEEWell, I need to make sure that the biggest thing is that class two, so the smaller scooters that go under four miles an hour, not the big tanks that you see that are roadworthy…

SIMONAnd they're about a metre long.

TANYALEEYeah. And that the class two smaller scooters are umbrella-d under the same discrimination laws that were enacted in like 210, because right now we don't feel like we have a wheel to stand on, kind of thing, and it's very frustrating because like Northern trains, they completely have a ban against mobility scooters, unless you take the mobility scooter apart and carry it on like luggage. I mean, come on.

KATESo you can't ride any Northern train?

TANYALEENo. So whoever made their policy used to work for IKEA.

SIMONAnd you're a stand-up comedian that travels all round this country using public transport. I've lived here all my life, I don't think I would do what you do, it's quite remarkable.

KATENo.

TANYALEEIt is. And the thing is I feel now that it's… Like I have a girl that does drive me to gigs right now and that takes a lot of pressure off me. However, I feel that I need to still be in the trenches, so I do at least one or two weekends on trains so that I'm there to suss out the situation and I'm sort of a voice of the people and I'm holding them accountable. And it's quite empowering really. From all of this it's empowered me because I didn't think people would listen to me before and now they are.

KATEI mean obviously we don't have anyone from those train companies in order to sort of answer back and sort of respond to it.

TANYALEEYeah, sure.

KATEBut every train company has a different policy, is that right?

TANYALEEYes, yes they do, and that's the frustrating part. We need to have an across the board, we need to get the Department for Transport on board and put this like so that it's blanket across each train line. That's going to take a bit more, but they are talking about it in parliament. That's huge. And then also a new booking app. I'm going to be trialling a new booking app for Greater Anglia which they're going to use that to go national. And that's the other thing I've been pushing for, it was already in the works so I can't take credit for that, but I think they're really pushing it now because I've been so vocal about this booking app. We have no flexibility, we have no spontaneity. You know, I just want to show up at the train station and I want to get on without getting lectured.

KATEAmazing. Well, fingers crossed.

TANYALEEYes.

KATEI really hope that this changes, because the amount of time we talk about trains on this programme, I feel like it would be lovely if we could stop talking about trains at some point.

SIMONYes. Or without mentioning the loo for once, when you go to the toilet, yes.

KATEYeah. We haven't even started on the toilet.

SIMONWoah, woah, woah!

TANYALEEYeah, it was broken on the way down. [laughter] But they did tell me in advance this time.

KATEAnyway, I want to come on to another story that's been doing the rounds soon, but we're going to pause to take a look at some of the things that you've been sending us.

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SIMONTo Golden Dale in Washington USA. Grady Bradley writes, "Ouch is one of our favourites. Our family listens to 23, yes 23, BBC podcast shows every week. It's always fresh and relevant, sometimes funny."

KATESometimes funny?

SIMONThanks for that flattery. "The podcasts are played out on a schedule on our personal very low power radio station, starting with the Global News podcast at six a.m. We've been listening since 2013."

KATEI mean, I feel like we should be getting some rights payments from you, Grady, if you're putting it on your own radio station.

SIMONI'm guessing he's got a spreadsheet and he just kind of plays these shows in… I mean, that's really nice, and nice that we get a little slot.

KATEI love that. Hello Bradley family, listening to us on your radio station.

SIMONAnd thank you for letting us be sometimes funny.

KATESometimes funny, everyone. Just sometimes.

TANYALEEIt needs a little work.

SIMONWe have another tweet here from someone simply calling himself Adam, who says, "Absolutely love @bbcouch for giving individuals with disabilities a voice."

KATEAre we just reading out nice things about ourselves?

SIMONYeah.

KATEIs that what's happening here?

SIMONAlthough that's just what you said, Tanyalee, you feel you've got a voice now. It's a big thing.

TANYALEEYeah. I'm using social media for a good thing as well, because this has really helped get, you know, by posting the videos and stuff like that, gained all this attention, and then with Twitter and everything like that, you know, people are coming to me directly and it's been fantastic.

SIMONWe're making a difference, Kate, aren't we? We're making a difference.

KATESometimes in a funny fashion.

SIMONYeah.

KATESometimes. We've had lots and lots of tweets about our TV show, Ouch Storytelling Live, which was on BBC 2 at the end of August.

SIMONOh. Were you involved in that, Kate?

KATENo, I don't think I was. Were you involved in it?

SIMONNo, no.

KATEThey did have 'Britain's Got Talent' winner, Lost Voice Guy on who… I think you might be getting out of job soon as he's taking all the jobs isn't he?

SIMON[laughs]

KATEI'll be having him as my co presenter soon. But Dave G tweeted, "Stumbled across @bbcouch last night on @bbcnews channel. Bloody brilliant. Hats off to all those who took part." I do love a good bloody brilliant in there. So British.

RAYMONDBloody brilliant.

KATEAnd most of them were along these lines, but we got this one from Nate Williams. "Watching @bbcouch comedy last night on BBC 2. So far, watered down inspiration porn. Haven't laughed and those who have sound like sympathisers. Disappointing."

TANYALEEWah-wah.

KATEOh well, can't wait to watch your TV show, Nate.

SIMONIt's a kind of damned it you, damned if you don't. Even Lost Voice Guy winning 'Britain's Got Talent', people are like, "Oh, duh, duh, duh," it's…

KATEWhat's the duh, duh, duh? Sympathy vote?

SIMONThere's people who go, "He's really funny," and there's others who say, "Oh no, it was a sympathy vote, yeah."

RAYMONDYeah.

SIMONAnd you're like, well what do you do?

TANYALEEYeah, but you know, work with what you've got, and the thing is he's established, he's very talented in what he does and, you know, so what? Milk it. He deserves it. He's worked hard and it's given him an amazing platform.

SIMONThe irony, I think his Edinburgh show is called 'Inspiration Porn', and he's ripping that to bits by saying that's what I don't want to be.

RAYMONDHmm-hmm.

KATEYeah. Well, maybe we've been too much inspiration porn for some people, Nate?

SIMONNate is not a fan, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for the feedback, Nate.

KATEHe is not a fan.

TANYALEETurn it off then, Nate.

KATEThanks for writing in.

SIMONI might make a little video about how upset I am. [laughter]

KATEAnd the last one today is a bit of a surprising email, with the subject line, 'Spasticity and the language to use'. And it's from a guy called Martin. Now, Tanyalee and Raymond, stand by because I'm hoping you might be able to help us help Martin here. Because Martin says, "Hi there…" And just to let you know, he's a carer and was going for an interview as a carer. So, "I had an interview earlier today for a job with a care firm.

At one point I referred to someone I know as a spastic, meaning that they suffer from spasticity. My interviewer, an able bodied man himself, said that this was a derogatory term and I pointed out it is a correct medical term. Of course I'm aware that it can be, and is, used as an insult, but I was not aware of just how toxic a word this is, certainly to my interviewer's mind. Now, having checked Wikipedia…" a reputable source…

SIMONBecause you don't need to go any further.

KATEEver, than Wikipedia, "…it seems that the term spastic and spasticity are still correct in medical usage. In fact, my mother is slightly spastic and uses this word herself. When asked to provide an alternative, less offensive term, my interviewer suggested that I should refer to somebody having extra needs, a term which he said covers everything. To my mind, this is such a broad phrase that it conveys no meaning.

Now, in order not to give offence what language is and is not appropriate? My feeling is that if we deprive our language of these medical terms without an adequate replacement we will lose the ability to talk about the condition and make people already on the margins of society feel still more isolated. Please let me know what you think." So, he's asking for help here, guys. What do we think? I mean first of all we probably should have somebody with cerebral palsy on to talk about the specific spastic element.

SIMONOh, don't need to worry about that, we'll just make up our own mind about other people.

KATEWe'll just make it up. All right, Simon. Any thoughts?

SIMONYou know what? I'd misread it. I thought he'd referred to someone who had spasticity, and I think that's okay. The fact that he called someone 'a spastic'…

RAYMONDYes.

SIMON… I think that's the clumsy bit.

RAYMONDYes.

SIMONAnd I have spondyloepiphyseal dysplasia congenita.

KATEAll right, no need to show off.

SIMONSo is that what he should be referring to? That's the medical term for it. So I think he did… And we do have a replacement, it's called cerebral palsy, and it's not that difficult. So I think he's sort of 20 years out of date. I totally agree, if you're moving language on you need a useful replacement.

KATEI like that he's asking for help though.

SIMONAbsolutely.

KATEHe said, "I feel like I've got it wrong, maybe."

SIMONHis intention was good.

TANYALEEYeah, well that's where I look at it, whereas, you know, given the field that he's in he's quite comfortable with using that terminology and the intent is that he's just trying to be inclusive. I mean, he's out there trying to help other people and be hip to the scene. But I find a lot of… you know, it's the people that help disabled people that seem to get a lot more up in arms about terminology.

SIMONYes, and not the person…

TANYALEEIt's not actually the disabled people that care, and all of a sudden it's like there's somebody on behalf of you is now going, "No, no, no, that's not right," and you're like, "Lighten up, it's okay, it'll be fine."

KATEI mean, I feel it's funny we're still in this situation that somebody's asking this question.

RAYMONDYeah.

KATEI feel like I thought we'd moved on a bit.

SIMONBut Raymond, I think you're a little bit younger, presumably that word spastic's never been in your kind of lexicon? That was before your time?

RAYMONDI was at school in 2001, early 2000s, and I remember a whole lesson in sociology about why what used to be called the Spastic Society had to change its name.

SIMONYes.

RAYMONDAnd I was so aware of that lesson because they were doing it partly because me and three other deaf students were in that classroom, and that was a word that had gone around. So it's a word that carries a lot of trauma with it. It's so outdated, it's so…

SIMONThey're Scope aren't they now?

RAYMONDYeah.

SIMONThey've changed their name to Scope, the Spastic Society. It's a long time ago.

RAYMONDThis was like in the '90s, yeah.

SIMONAbsolutely, yeah. And in the deaf world are there sensitivities around language? How do you refer to yourself?

RAYMONDThat's so loaded for me, you know, there's capital D, Deaf, there's small D, deaf, some people do refer to me as Capital D, Deaf.

KATEWhat's the difference?

RAYMONDBecause I was born deaf, because I went to a deaf school, so I've gone through deaf education, but some people refer to me as small D, deaf, because my sign language isn't very fluent. And all of those politics and all of that history and that language changes depending on my environment, depending on where I am, you know.

KATEAnd what do you see yourself as? Like would you prefer to be capital D, Deaf, or would you prefer to be the small D?

RAYMONDIt's funny, my publisher always asks me this and I've even put it on my book. I just say do both. Small D over the capital D, because both of those experiences are true to me, that the small D for me is more of the medical experience and the capital D is more the cultural experience. So either.

SIMONIt is a bit, top trumps again, it's a bit like the wheelchair and mobility scooter.

RAYMONDYeah.

SIMONAnd if you're little D… I'm little D because I'm losing my hearing, but I'm not big D, because I've not been deaf, I'm not deaf culture, yeah.

RAYMONDRight. You became deaf later, is that right?

SIMONYeah, I'm losing my hearing, yeah. As we speak. [laughter]

TANYALEEIt's because we're getting old, that's why. It comes with age as well.

KATEI mean, I…

SIMONAnd you, Kate, yeah.

KATEI like that people are asking the questions, but I just feel like this whole conversation that we're having, it feels like why are we so behind? I thought we were further ahead than this.

RAYMONDYeah.

KATEAnd in terms of kind of what you guys have been saying about the UK feeling like it's further behind than America or Canada, I wouldn't have… I mean, I don't travel that much to be honest, so you lot know it a lot better than I do, that maybe I thought we were doing okay, and clearly we're not. And I guess questions like this that are popping up still you think yeah, haven't we moved on from this, haven't we…?

SIMONWe've had this conversation on Ouch before. It's kind of every two years it pops up again.

KATEYeah. Not quite as frequently as trains, I feel like that's every couple of months. [laughter] Or toilets.

TANYALEEThey keep messing up, so it'll forever be in the news.

KATECome on guys, let's get a bit further ahead, let's sort this out.

SIMONAlthough I feel we're just about to go into a minefield of language which is a bit close to home for me.

KATEYeah. I don't know if you've heard about this, Tanyalee, or Raymond, but there's been a dwarf wrestling story that's been around for a while now. There's a wrestling entertainment show called, 'Extreme Dwarfanators' from America, that progressive country that we've just been chatting about. [laughter] And they have planned a tour in this country, but a number of venues have cancelled the dates, as they feel the promotion around it doesn't fit with their inclusive values, after the event was dubbed, a Victorian spectacle by the Restricted Growth Association.

Now, the organisers say that it's a sport and entertainment, and the participants are professional athletes. But is it going too far, and what's the difference between this and sports like the Paralympics or the Dwarf Sports Association? Now, I'm getting a lot of looks, differing looks, from the two short people here, Tanyalee Davis and Simon…

SIMONWe are just getting in to our wrestling gear as you speak.

TANYALEEYeah, yeah, we're going to duke it out.

KATEThe arena is set behind me…

RAYMONDDo you want me to hold anything?

KATEAnd off we go.

SIMONYou could hold up a round…

TANYALEEAnd wear some skivvies.

KATENow, Tanyalee, as a guest I would like to give you the first comment on this. So what do you think?

TANYALEEWell…

SIMONRight… Oh, sorry. [laughter]

TANYALEEFirst of all I think that, I mean yes, I have been contacted by various news thingies in regards to this, and being in the entertainment business I'm quite liberal in my views on this. I think that nobody's forcing these guys, it is a sport… I learned yesterday that it's actually geared to families, it's not like it's a late night drinking culture, you know, come, you know. And they also changed their name apparently, it was called midget wrestlers or something.

SIMONWhich is considered really offensive, yeah, yeah.

TANYALEEYeah, so I mean they are trying to make some amends I guess but, you know, I think these guys are making a living. And I grew up watching wrestling with my grandfather and I remember seeing little people, all of a sudden there would be a bout with little guys wrestling, and it wasn't sensationalised, they're called bouts where they had the little people wresting. And I remember thinking to myself, wow, you know, these short guys are doing exactly the same thing as the big guys, so I was really impressed with that. In this day and age it's a bit more sensationalised but I think by giving them more publicity you're actually creating a bigger sort of arena, a spectacle for them by all this extra publicity that they're getting.

KATESimon? What's your opinion?

SIMONWell, Raymond, I was more interested. Where are you at on this, Raymond?

RAYMONDI think it depends on the audience, and like what Tanyalee was saying about thinking about who's watching, who's it for, who benefits? And I really like what you say about it being a positive representation for other small people to do what big people are doing. I think that's really powerful and important. But then I think if there's like a mockery element then it becomes a kind of… It can kind of tread that positive discrimination/like something that actually feeds into some of the toxic ideas that our culture has about small people.

TANYALEEYeah, very true.

SIMONAnd that's a bit where we kind of say well why haven't we got blind wrestling and why haven't we got cerebral palsy, or as some people say, spastic wrestling? [laughter] We wouldn't do it with these other groups would we? So there's something about people with dwarfism that fits into this entertainment element. Eugene Grant, who's been on this show before, he's been very vociferous about this, Little People of America said, "We don't want this."

KATEYeah, he talked very eloquently and strongly after the deaf of Verne Troyer who played Mini-Me and why he was not a helpful representation.

SIMONHe feels it reinforces the stereotypes, and this means he is going to get more grief. There's almost a responsibility of these performers not to do this because this means there will be more grief on the streets. It encourages other people to laugh, to point, to mock, whatever it might be. I did, 20 years ago, and I feel like Eugene is repeating history, made a documentary with Channel Four about the Half Monty, which was a great name of short men who were strippers. And my question was, "Is this a good idea?" I wasn't saying ban it, I just said, "Is this a good idea?"

TANYALEEWere you one of the people for the Half Monty?

SIMONNo, I kept my clothes on, I was questioning the validity and whether this would actually…

TANYALEECome on, Minty.

SIMON…cause more issues. However, I remember making this documentary, and I was reduced to one minute and there were 27 minutes of them having fun. But when I went to watch the show they were patted on the head, they were laughed at, they were picked up. There was no skill or respect, this was laugh at.

KATEIs that where you differ then from the dwarf sports that you take part in? Because you just were at the dwarf sport games winning your medals in shooting?

SIMONYes, but I think that is a wholly different thing as well as things like the Paralympics and so on. Yes, we all had to do the training, but this is competitive sport, this is not entertainment, let's laugh at the little people. We don't bring in crowds to watch or point, it is quite exclusive. We're not doing it for the entertainment of other people, we're doing it for the benefit of us, to develop our own skills. If you do Google and look this up, things like funny dwarf wrestling, extreme midget wrestling, the Devil versus Baby Jesus, Mexican wrestler dropkicks midget in a monkey suit. [laughter] Thank you very much. 'Australia's Got Talent', dwarf wrestling, this is kicking around, this is not…

KATEDo you not think that at some point you have to say no, this is damaging to short people, that having a Mexican wrestler dropkick a midget wearing a monkey suit, is that not going to promote the idea that short people are figures to be made fun of?

TANYALEEOkay. So, because I've never watched and I don't know exactly what these guys are doing, I am basing my opinion on if these guys are just going out they body build, they're all muscled up and they're physically up to par with each other and the wrestlers and they're just going out. I mean yes, they'll have a bit of gimmicks with the costumes and stuff like that, but if it's going to the point where it's extreme like that where they're dropkicking, that I do have an issue with.

SIMONAnd that's where it goes from professional to ridicule, and that's that bit… Well, you mentioned it, Raymond. The bit I twigged after making that documentary is I can't stop people doing things. So if you said to me, "I wish they wouldn't do it but I'm not going to ban them, I'm not going to ban them from doing it, I just wish they wouldn't," what I also realised was it's about balance. So I've worked with people who are making good stuff around being short, interesting stuff, so there isn't just the entertainment side, the good stuff starts to outweigh it. Previously we only had the entertainment element.

KATEWhat does the good stuff look like? Is it like 'Twin It to Win It' on CBBC where you have young dwarf presenters who…?

SIMONWho makes that show?

KATEOh, I don't know. Somebody super talented I think.

SIMONSo the point being, they happen to be on the show because maybe they have another talent, they have another skill, they are good…

RAYMONDRight. So just to say about the good, I think good means human, right? It means their humanity is being represented.

SIMONMore than, yeah absolutely. Yeah, that's a very good… That's why you're the poet, you're good with words. Absolutely. It can be funny, it can be entertaining, but it's something more deep and something… Or it could just be a contestant on any quiz show, you know, he's just turning up and doing their thing. People like Lisa Hammond who is on 'EastEnders', she could have earned a fortune by what I'd call just dressing up and doing it, and she said, "No, I don't want to do it, I want something more than that." But it's hard, because if you're offered bucks and that's what you do, you know, it's tough.

TANYALEEOh, I've been offered to get like tied to somebody for like a bachelorette or stag or hen dos and all that sort of stuff. You know, people contact me and they want me to set them up with little people because they have this dwarf fetish, and I'm just like, "First of all, I'm not your dwarf pimp." [laughter] You know, and it's just… Yeah, so those types of things that I just go, what is wrong with you? Like that's not where I'm at and, you know, I mean there's people out there that do it, if they want to, fine, but it's not my bag.

RAYMONDI was just thinking that if I compare this to say, minstrels and being a minstrel and what that is, like that's offensive because there's a history of oppression, there's a history of having to overcome, in black people's case, slavery. And there's a long history with oppression with people with disabilities, as we all know. So it's the fact that most people aren't educated about that and the fact that almost we feel a responsibility to again portray our humanity, and it feels…

SIMONIt is about the source, where do you get your information, and that's why we need that balance, yeah, it's not just the… Oh, I lost my BBC un-bias there didn't I? I hope it was all right as a compensation.

RAYMONDWell, the last word was balance so…

SIMONOkay, thank you.

KATEYeah, but let's focus now on Raymond Antrobus who's with us now. Now, Raymond, you are a hard of hearing poet from Hackney and your new book, a full collection of poems called 'The Perseverance' is out now. Now, you focus a lot on that history of deafness that you were talking about, but you sit between… Like we sort of started this conversation, how you sit between different identities, the big D, deaf, the little D, deaf. You are mixed race, so perhaps you sit between an identity of black and white. How do you feel about your identity?

RAYMONDI mean, like I said earlier, it depends on the environment I'm in, I always feel like I have to be conscious about how I'm being perceived. And my understanding and my reading of how I'm being perceived influences then the language I use or my manner.

KATESo perceived in what way?

RAYMONDPerceived racially or perceived as a man. And it's funny, you're talking about the thing about big people and little people, I used to do body building in a previous life when I was a personal trainer and all this kind of stuff, and I became very aware of say maybe being on the street and walking down the street and if there's say a woman walking alone I'm always very… Like okay, I'm a big brown man, I need… you know. And so there's a whole thing that comes around the perception, because again, I understand the societal perceptions of that, and I don't agree with them but they are there.

SIMONWell, that's a disability bit, it's almost you're trying to put them at ease for your difference.

RAYMONDRight, right.

SIMONI know me, Tanyalee, I'm sure we've all done this where we know someone's looking in a certain way and wow, that's amazing.

RAYMONDRight, yeah. And there's this kind of work that you've got to do for other people and it's so tiring, and I think we all have our own degrees of that. And it's funny, you ask me how I perceive myself, and my first response was, well this is how I'm perceived. But how I perceive myself is the things that are important to me, I'm a poet, I'm a teacher, I'm a cyclist, I'm a pedestrian, I'm a thinker, I'm a listener. I'm obsessed with language and connections and the things that connect us in a way, and I think that's what kind of gravitates me towards being a poet and poetry, and working so much with young people and in education. Because I believe that so many of these discussions we're having now don't exist in people's classrooms. They don't exist.

Like, I really like the quote where if your classroom doesn't represent the make up of the society you live in you have been miseducated. There isn't a disabled person or a black person or brown person, people who speak different languages, we've all in some way been miseducated, and that's something that I often look at and write into I think as a poet.

SIMONJust to excite the listener, both Kate and I have written a poem.

RAYMONDI heard.

KATESome better than others. Mine is a one verse haiku.

RAYMONDOh-oh.

KATEWhich is what I learnt. That was probably my last English lesson, was about haikus.

SIMONWe will come onto it and embarrass ourselves in a moment, but your book, why is it called 'The Perseverance'?

RAYMONDIt's called 'The Perseverance' because it's so… There's a strand throughout the whole book of someone having to persevere, be it myself, be it a… There are other people's voices and stories who I've written into who have had their own perseverance. And it's about I suppose on one level growing up deaf, and my deafness, even though I was born with it it was diagnosed late.

SIMONYou were on a previous BBC Ouch show which we listened to and you were six or seven, something like that?

RAYMONDYeah.

SIMONAnd you not hearing the telephone ring.

RAYMONDRight, exactly, yeah. So like in a way the telephone was the thing that diagnosed me, and the language that was used to, unintentionally pathologise me before that was slow, stupid, aloof, lost, and all of these words which, you know, when you were asking me earlier about how do I perceive myself, I knew that that was being put on me and I knew internally that isn't what I was. And so I've always felt like I've had to develop a language to explain. And I reckon all of us probably feel that way and have that responsibility, be it in your art forms and using our platforms to try and be like, hey, you probably think this thing about me but let me try and explain what this is.

SIMONAre you nodding, Tanyalee?

TANYALEEWell yeah, I do that with my stand up as well.

RAYMONDExactly, yeah.

TANYALEEYou know, I mean the minute I get up on stage I feel the tension in the room and it's my responsibility at that point to put a funny line out there to try and put people at ease and go, "Okay, listen, this is going to be okay, we'll get through this together. It'll be fine."

KATEAnd 'The Perseverance', the name of your book, isn't that also the name of a pub?

RAYMONDYes. So another strand to 'The Perseverance' is the name of the pub in Hackney, Broadway Market, just at that end, and it's the pub my dad used to drink in, so for a number of years my dad struggled with alcoholism. He did recover towards the end of his life, but when I was a child he… Yeah. So I write into that and I've got a lot of childhood memories of being left outside this pub, The Perseverance, and the kind of different interactions that would happen around that.

KATEAnd can we hear one of your poems do you think?

RAYMONDSure.

KATEI'd love to…

SIMONAre you talking to me?

KATEEr no, not you just yet, Simon. [laughter]

SIMONOh okay, you go first mate.

KATEI'd like to hear Raymond first, just so we can hear so it should be done [laughter] and then we can move on from there.

TANYALEEAnd then on to the comedy part of the show.

RAYMONDI wasn't sure what to do, I think I'm going to do this poem. This poem is called, 'Two Guns in the Sky for Daniel Harris'. And people who speak sign language will know that every nation has its own sign language, so BSL and Sign Assisted English is what I've been grappling with, but I've also been trying to pick up some ASL, some American Sign Language, when I was in the States. And just to say that in the context of this poem the word alive is putting two thumbs below your chest which are index fingers pointing up and bringing it up towards your chest. I'm not sure that makes sense audibly.

SIMONAnd do we need to know who Daniel Harris is?

RAYMONDDaniel Harris was a man who will be explained in the poem I suppose. So this is called 'Two Guns in the Sky for Daniel Harris'.

When Daniel Harris stepped out of his car the police officer was waiting, gun raised. I use the past tense, though this is irrelevant in Daniel's language, which is sign. Sign has no future or past; it is a present language. You are never more present when a gun is pointed at you. What language says this, if not sign? But the police officer saw hands waving in the air, fired, and Daniel dropped his hands, his chest bleeding out onto the concrete, metres from his home. And I'm in a New York coffee house, reading this news on my phone when a black police officer walks in, two guns on her hips, my friend next to me reading the comment section, 'black lives matter'. Now, what could we sign or say out loud, when the last word I learned in American Sign Language was alive. Alive, both thumbs pointing at your lower abdominal, index fingers pointing up like two guns in the sky.

SIMONWow.

KATEWow. [applause]

TANYALEEIntense, man. Good job.

SIMONThank you.

TANYALEEIt gave me goose bumps.

RAYMONDAnd it's that thing about ignorance isn't it? It's that thing about there's so much at stake for us. If we're not understood, literally, in some circumstances our lives are at risk. And there are so many cases, like what happened with Daniel Harris, around the world. Around the world.

KATEI guess that's coming back to your identity as well, because you again are sort of mixed race and deaf, and those are two very difficult things to be in that specific situation. You would feel doubly vulnerable to somebody like me who's a white woman who would not feel anywhere as near as vulnerable in that situation.

RAYMONDSure.

KATEOkay, so we mentioned it earlier, but I think now is the right time that we bring in our own poetic talents. We put them on the table and we'll see what everyone thinks about them.

TANYALEEGet the tomatoes ready.

RAYMONDRight, let me lower my seat.

KATEI would just like to caveat this with I got this email about midnight last night so…

SIMONYou and me both.

KATEYeah, so we didn't have a lot of time. So my poem is an ode to pain, because obviously a lot of my disability is about pain. And it's a haiku, which as we all know is five syllables, followed by seven syllables, followed by five. It was always the one I chose at school because it was always the easiest because they didn't have to rhyme or anything. So, here we go. Is everyone ready? Got your listening ears on everybody? Okay, here we go.

TANYALEEWith bated breath.

SIMONSo I want…

KATEYou want what?

SIMONNo, I want to hear it, but I'm thinking I want Raymond to read mine, but anyway, keep going.

KATEOkay.

SIMONI'm really getting into this, I really can't wait.

KATEHe's not reading mine. Here we go everyone. Pain, pain, go away, come again another day. Or actually not. [laughter] There we go. That was mine. No applause over here? No applause for that? [applause] Yeah. What do we think? I think that was quite a tepid response.

SIMONI was waiting for more, but I forgot it's limited.

TANYALEEIt's a haiku.

KATEIt's just a haiku.

RAYMONDHaiku is the pigeon's favourite…

TANYALEEIt's just dangling.

KATEAnyone got any suggestions for improvements? Raymond?

RAYMONDI mean, one of the rules… I always get told off for haikus, even the whole idea of having a five, seven, five, because apparently the Japanese original form. You need a seasonal word, this doesn't qualify without a seasonal word, and also it doesn't have to strictly be five, seven, five, blah, blah, blah. But I'm not… I got into a lot of trouble basically writing haikus and the haiku professor came up to me and just lectured me on all the reasons why I'm wrong. Oh dear.

SIMONSo there are rules?

TANYALEEYou have to say pain the winter.

RAYMONDHey, that's a good line though. That's better.

KATEPain, pain in the winter. Oh, okay.

RAYMONDYou've subverted a cliché.

KATERight, good. Simon? Any suggestions for me?

SIMONNo, no, no, I'm agreeing with everybody else. What I did like was how it twisted at the end. I enjoyed that.

KATEGood. Well, shall we hear yours now?

TANYALEEYes, yes. Come on Minty.

SIMONSo my caveat is the same. We'd got five minutes from our editor, Damon, to write it. I also had been writing a presentation that essentially was about trying to encourage people to say it's okay to be disabled. So that was bang in the middle of my head and I'd been spending two hours on it. So I'm in a place… Is it better to get Raymond to read it?

KATEYeah.

RAYMONDI mean I think you should read it, personally.

SIMONI knew you'd say that, because you're an artist.

RAYMONDAnd it's your politics, political poem.

TANYALEEHere you go.

SIMONOh how little you know of me. How easy it is for one to be small minded. To reduce your understanding to tiny moments of another. To not see that in smallness can be greatness. So I feel for you. Such limitations. Your narrow view, whilst I bask in the delight of understanding. Me, and the enlightened few.

KATEOh…

TANYALEEWow. [applause] That's actually really good.

RAYMONDNot bad, not bad. I mean, and rhymes. Not bad, not bad.

SIMON[laughs] As in the end shouldn't or should rhyme?

RAYMONDEnd rhymes aren't easy, that's all I'm saying.

SIMONCan I say, it was accidental.

RAYMONDReally?

SIMONIt was accidental, that. And then I thought oh right, I'll keep that in. But it wasn't deliberate, it was just how it was and then I thought oh, yeah.

TANYALEEIt was good actually. Obviously I can relate to that, your poem.

SIMONIf you want it for your show, Tanyalee.

TANYALEEWell, you know, the comedy element in there needs sprucing up. It needs to be more seasonal.

KATEA few more seasonal words in there I think is what it needed, Simon.

RAYMONDYeah.

SIMONImprovements, Raymond? So not the rhyme, that's a bit of a cliché?

RAYMONDYeah, I mean, I don't know. I've got a thing because I feel in so many ways, and a lot of poets that go into education feel this, that they have to kind of undo some of the ways that English teachers fail poetry, and fail to teach it because of their own reluctance and their own trauma of how they learnt it. And for me it's often that, you know, when you're at school people start with the form. They might say, "Okay, well this is how Shakespeare wrote his sonnets…"

KATEJust like mine.

RAYMONDYou know, shall I compare thee to a summer's day? And then they're taking about the tercet, they're talking about all of the words for the different sounds. It sounds so technical, and what that does is that it engages that part of your brain, that critical part of your brain instead of the creative, feeling part. And that for me, it's so important. I mean for the way I write I have to start with the feeling and then the form comes after. But the way it's taught is start with the form and then for some reason everything else comes after. You know, you don't start with the technicality, you've got to start with the love, the feeling.

SIMONAnd the only reason that I almost didn't want to do it, because Damon said, "You've got five minutes" and I thought if I spend any more than that I'll end up getting technical and I'll ruin it. So just bang it out.

RAYMONDRight, but you felt it. Yeah, I felt like there was emotion in there. There was sincerity in there.

TANYALEEYeah, that's exactly what I felt too. I think those are the best types of poems are the ones that move you. I don't care about rhyming and all that sort of stuff, like the one that you read gave me goose bumps and I could relate to Simon's as well. And your haiku was fantastic.

KATEThank you. I was just going to say.

TANYALEEI don't want to leave you out of course, too.

RAYMONDYeah, that was really great.

KATEI mean was poetry and spoken word, was that an obvious choice for you as a deaf child career-wise?

RAYMONDWell, I think so much of my nourishment of poetry, of language, came from both my parents. Both my parents are readers and appreciators of poetry, but in very different ways. So my dad used to have this tape that he would play of a Jamaican woman called Miss Lou, Louise Bennett, just reciting poetry. 'Wat a devilment a Englan!' And you just hear it and it was always kind of in the background. And he would laugh and, you know, all these poems were really cheerful.

My mum's favourite poet is William Blake, and she would often like recite a William Blake poem or talk about wisdom and experience, and even though I'd say as a child it wasn't kind of hitting me in the way that was like, oh I could be a poet, but it did equip me with something I realised later, that I could apply when I realise, oh wait, I do love this. and my grandfather was a preacher, he was a poet himself, and a short story writer, and he passed away the year I was born and I was given a whole folder of his sermons, of his poems, of his short stories, and that in a way affirmed that I am just that creature, it's part of my…

TANYALEEIt's in your bones.

RAYMONDIn the bone, in the DNA, you know?

TANYALEEYeah, absolutely.

SIMONYou're going on tour. Where can we see you?

RAYMONDI have a number of readings come up. I'm going to be launching 'The Perseverance' and then I'm going to be in Bristol, so I'm going around the country, Bristol on 8th, Old Vic Theatre, and then I'm going to be in Birmingham at the Birmingham Literature Festival on 13th October. If you're in London there's a really great night called Tongue Fu where they get a bunch of poets and sometimes stand up comedians to perform improvised stand up and poetry with a band, one of my favourite nights in London to do. And that's on 18th October at Rich Mix. So yeah, I'm about.

KATEHave you got a website where we can try and find these things?

RAYMONDRaymondantrobus.com. Just my name, dot com, or I'm on Twitter @raymondantrobus.

KATEAnd your book?

RAYMONDThe book is called 'The Perseverance', it's published by Penned in the Margins and it's out now.

SIMONTanyalee, you are on tour too?

TANYALEEYes. My 'Actual Size' show just started last week, so I'm doing venues all over the country and we're extending the tour in 2019 and it's going to be more accessible venues because that's been an issue. And my website is tanyaleedavis.com, and the tour dates will be on there.

SIMONThank you.

TANYALEEAnd @tanyaleedavis on Twitter and Dwarf Diva on Instagram.

KATEBrilliant. Well, thank you to Tanyalee Davis and Raymond Antrobus for being our guests. That's it for this month's Ouch roundtable talk show. There's a shorter podcast on this feed every week, which is sometimes funny, but Simon and I are back in November. The studio manager today was John Taylor-Wade and the producer was Damon Rose.

SIMONGet in contact with us. We may even read it out, so email [e-mail]. Tweet @bbcouch, or find us on Facebook.

KATESee you in a month. Good bye.

SIMONBye.

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