Transcript: Alex Brooker: 'I'm the most comfortable I've ever been with my disability'

This is a transcript of the Cabin Fever podcast Alex Brooker: 'I'm the most comfortable I've ever been with my disability' as released on 6 July 2020 and presented by Emma Tracey.

[Jingle - Ouch]

EMMA - Hello, and welcome to the Cabin Fever podcast from BBC Ouch. I'm Emma Tracey. In this episode I'm speaking to Alex Brooker, long term host of 'The Last Leg' from Channel 4, or what we like to call Ouch on the telly. Alex has lots of interesting limb differences, and he's been joking about disability for about eight years now. So I started off by asking him why he'd gone from a pretty light-hearted Friday night chat show to making a pretty serious documentary for the BBC.

ALEX - I wanted to kind of take a look at disability as a broader subject really for the first time in my life, you know. I've just turned 36 and I've got two children of my own now, and I think that I'd got to the stage where I was starting to ask more questions maybe than what I ever did before. Which might sound strange to some people but I've always kind of just got on with it.

EMMA - That does sound unusual to me because obviously you have been talking about disability on the telly for eight years on and off. But I guess the other part of it is you were thrown into that, you decided out of never doing anything disability related before to apply for the Channel 4 presenter scheme and then suddenly you're on the telly, like on the actual big, real, Channel 4 telly during the Paralympics. Like, that's incredible.

ALEX - The career plan for me was never to go into kind of talking about disability really. When I applied for Channel 4 I was a sports journalist. I saw it as another sports journalism job, if I'm honest. I realised it was at the Paralympics and to be honest with you I thought actually I'm going to have a little bit more inside knowledge on this subject than what I maybe would do about Premier League football or something like that. And that was as far as the disability thought process went in my mind. But obviously 'Last Leg' came about and god, I've loved every minute of it, but it was never the plan. And what I mean in terms of asking certain questions, especially when we had the girls, something kind of changed in me a little bit. I started to question more, certainly about oh, what it must have been like for mum and dad, because I had like a new experience to relate back to them and I became a lot more, conscious I suppose in a way, of my disability. Now, there's a bit in the documentary where I talk about what it was like to be going for baby scans, which essentially is a joyous moment, if not tinged with worry with everyone. But with me the consultant would be there and he'd be checking the hands and feet. And I get it. Obviously I get it. You know, I don't have a genetic condition, they knew that, but at the same time I suppose they're doing it as much to maybe allay our fears or whatever. But essentially what he's basically doing is kind of just going just to reassure yourself your daughter's not going to be like you. And if you think about that as a thought process you're checking to make sure that my kid isn't going to be like me. And I get it, but it's kind of like, you know. I've written jokes about my kids, you know, they've got their mother's hands and stuff like that, but it's like at the same time I think there was a serious conversation to be had really, and I'm glad I did that because I feel probably now having done eight years of 'Last Leg', got to this stage of my life, and also from doing this documentary I think this is probably the most comfortable I've ever felt with my disability. And I hope that the viewers will get something from the documentary as well, be they able bodied or disabled.

EMMA - So I'm blind and I've always been blind and I have small kids as well. You become very thick skinned about your own impairment and how people perceive that, but suddenly when you've got two small people that are your responsibility and that look up to you, supposedly, and all that kind of stuff you think again about how people perceive you and your disability? Do you think that is the thing? I mean, I feel like that.

ALEX - That was certainly true for me. Just, for example, like a while ago I took my daughter to Asda and I was trying to put her in the shopping trolley. And I've got no issues lifting her up, but you could see the way people are looking at me thinking he's going to drop her here. And it does make you slightly self-conscious. And the big thing, I get very emotional in the documentary talking about this, is the idea of how will they feel about having a disabled dad? And it's one of those things that I slightly have made bigger in my mind over time. Ever since I was old enough to think about the idea of having a family, you're talking when you hit your teenage years is the first time, I thought, oh I wonder what, if I have kids one day I wonder if they'll be all right about it. So that kind of self-consciousness came very early on and it's always been there and then all of a sudden my oldest was three in January and literally a couple of weeks ago she said something about my hand for the first time. We were walking by a river and she kind of just said, "Oh, daddy, you've got two fingers haven't you and I've got more?" And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, that was how I was born." That was it, and she didn't say anything else, she wasn't freaked out, she didn't stop holding my hand, she didn't cry. So these horrific scenarios that I've built up in my mind, it's all done and dusted in about five seconds, and I thought, Jesus Christ, like 20 odd years worrying about that and that was it. Every parent worries about how their kids, you know, whether their kids are going to be proud of them or are they going to think they're cool, this is just slightly different because it's about my disability. So I've actually realised that kind of over time I make a bigger thing of the disability angle in my head than maybe I should in some ways.

EMMA - Yeah.

ALEX - It's like when they were born I was worried about holding the kids. I was genuinely worried about holding the kids, and I remember my best mate, Paul, came up to the hospital the second day my eldest was here and he was like, "Are you okay?" and I was just like, "I'm just so worried about dropping them, mate." And he was like, "Well, first of all you lift more at the gym and you don't drop it. You lift a lot more. Like this kid is like six pounds for crying out loud, so you do more." And he went, "Also, I was worried about dropping my kid and I've got two big hands." He went, "It's literally every parent's like that, that's like that nightmare scenario is dropping the baby. These aren't necessarily just disabled parent experiences, they're just parent experiences."

EMMA - I could talk about parenting all day so I suppose I will have to move on in a minute, but do you think there's anything that marks you out as a disabled person? So is there anything you do differently or that's different for you, for good or for bad I suppose?

ALEX - Do you mean in terms of kind of like the way I do stuff? In terms of like getting…?

EMMA - Well, I think it's whatever is the biggest for you in your mind. So I suppose for me what really marks me, well what really marks me out as a disabled person is I can't catch either of them and they're only two and five, but also my five year old is very perceptive and genuinely helpful, when he wants to be. Obviously when he doesn't want to be then he's completely not helpful, but there's a couple of things that I suppose are a little bit different but they're not bad they're just different in our house I guess.

ALEX - Yeah. I think, well obviously with the girls, just this morning I asked my daughter to pass me the socket for my leg and it's like obviously that's not a common occurrence, but then in a way it's like asking your child to pass your slippers or something like that. I remember we took the kids swimming last year in Huddersfield and like we went to this fun play thing in the swimming pool at the leisure centre. My daughter got out but obviously I can't follow her straight out, I've got to go and get my leg on. So I was just like, "Wait there," and she was smiling at me like walking further away. And she just went to start doing one, and I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, hang on a minute," and it's just like I'm stuck in the pool and my kid's like doing one and the life guard came over and he was like, "Are you alright?" and I said, "Yeah, sorry mate, I've just got to get my leg on and catch my kid." And also that's then using it to their advantage. She knew, she knew full well that I wasn't going to get out and stop her.

EMMA - No, they do that all the time.

ALEX - She knew it was going to take me a few seconds. And it's one of those parts of my life and disability that I'll never be upset with or sad about, it's actually for me those sort of moments are more a celebration, in a weird way. My daughter trying to do one from me at the swimming pool to me is a celebration of…

EMMA - Yeah, that's respect right there. [laughs]

ALEX - Yeah, it is because if you think about it not only has she acknowledged the fact that her dad's got one leg she's then used it to her advantage, and in a way she's not only okay with it, she's using it.

EMMA - You cover so many things in the documentary. Your mum features quite a lot.

ALEX - So yeah, my mum features in it quite prominently, and what I loved about it is the scenes where obviously you're set up to record, but me and my mum have never gone back through the old photos like we did in the documentary and talked about what it was like for her until we'd filmed it; we'd never talked about it before. And I think that that was the big thing for me in the documentary, was to go why haven't I had these conversations? Am I maybe afraid of it? Am I afraid of hearing from my mum how hard it was for her, and understandably so, do you know what I mean? That's no slight on me or her. I think the big thing I started to feel was like an element of guilt almost, you know, god, they've gone through this because of me. And my dad also, my dad passed away last year and I think that also had a big impact on me because I wished… My disability conversations with my dad were always very kind of straightforward. One of the only things he's ever said to me about being disabled is, "By the way, we had loads of blood tests done, you don't have a condition, you came out as you are." And I think that that was something that I always took and he was like, "Don't be worried about having children of your own." I remember him saying that to me when I was, god, maybe about 12 or 13. And that was basically it. I never asked the questions about what it was like for them, the questions of why. I didn't even know until me and my mum had the conversation when we filmed that they didn't know I was going to be disabled until I came out, I didn't realise it wasn't even picked up on the scans.

EMMA - Wow, yeah.

ALEX - So it's like certain things like that, they're big conversations to have, and I think that that's what the documentary centres around, you know, both of us going back to Great Ormond Street again for the first time in a long time. I go and see a consultant about my left leg and I've not seen a doctor about my disabilities, apart from my prosthetist who makes my legs, I've not seen a single surgeon up until that point for 17 years. I haven't seen a hand surgeon since 1993, and you look at those sorts of things and you go well, the documentary was a chance for me to take stock. I'm so proud of the work that I've done on 'Last Leg' and I'll be honest with you, it's weird for me because my conversations about disability, and I include 'Last Leg' in that, the big conversations I've had have been in front of a camera. I've learnt about my disability and myself on camera, so the audience have seen that and I think that that's what people will get from the documentary as well. They're learning as I do.

EMMA - I think it's good for people to see Alex Brooker, you know, he's usually so boyish, laddish, whatever, being quite emotional and quite serious about something. I would imagine for younger disabled people watching that's going to be a good thing.

ALEX - I hope so, I really do. And one of the biggest compliments I've got out of television is when I get contacted by parents of young people, young people themselves, who are disabled and they've seen me or they've seen something else and they've gone, "This has really inspired me to do more myself." And when I was growing up there weren't… There's not a great deal of disabled people on TV now, let's be honest, you know, there should be more, and I realise that I'm one of the few that are lucky enough to have been given a platform really. And I feel almost like a responsibility to that. So at the same time, I love the work I do on 'Last Leg', you know, I've never joked about my disability on the show then afterwards gone home and got really upset about it, like, it is what it is. I love those conversations. For example, the one that I just had with you, the one about my daughter noticing my hand. When I said that on the show a few weeks ago with Josh and Adam and like they… I was just saying to them, "Don't hold back, still take the mickey even though it's like an emotional thing for me," and Josh did joke about, it's something about my daughter's wondering why I couldn't do the tower or couldn't do the steeple or something like that in that kids game. And I loved it and I genuinely laughed at it. It's such a great leveller. But I love that work, but at the same time obviously with this documentary my experience of disability growing up on television was always like you'd get like a documentary about the real struggles of us all, and I didn't want it to just be about one of those shows where I'm just talking about how hard life is because I enjoy my life, disability is a big part of who I am but it's given me so much as well. I wanted it to be as much of a celebration, so there are funny moments but obviously there are emotional moments, you can't help but avoid that with the subject matter that is so intensely personal and this is the most personal thing I will probably ever put on television.

EMMA - Yes, that's what I was going to say, like it's hard to go from here to the next thing maybe, but I want to go back, there's a couple of things that I want to pick up on from what you've said. Do you think talking to your mum about what it was like for her when you were born and growing up, has that changed your relationship at all with your mum?

ALEX - I still wind her up loads, I really enjoy it. I can't say strongly enough how much I enjoy winding my mum up. It was kind of one of those things, literally only yesterday I was on the phone to her and because she hasn't seen the documentary yet, I've seen it and I said to her, "Look, you know, Ma, you come across really well and there's some really beautiful moments in it and there's some moments where…" I said to her, "I feel so sorry for like how hard for you it was, some of it, and you can see in your face when you think back how hard it must have been. And I think the audience are really going to love you for that but at the same time I just want them to put a disclaimer on the bottom going, as much as this woman is a heart-warming character she does Alex's bloody head in with the constant questions and the texts every day." "What are you doing? When am I going to see the kids? What are you doing, this?" Like literally every time I speak to her it's like a quick fire interview, nothing has changed, she's still going to annoy me responding to people on Twitter. I mean, my goodness, I've been doing TV for eight years…

EMMA - Does she do that?

ALEX - Yes, she does. Before she was like my profile picture, so it's clearly my mum and like she'll just be gobbing off at someone who said like 'The Last Leg' wasn't funny or something like that. And it's like, "Mum, they're entitled to their opinion, maybe that bit wasn't," you know. Comedy's subjective and I've been trying to have this conversation with her for eight years and she still doesn't get it. I remember there was a bit on 'Sink or Swim' that I did last year for Channel 4 and…

EMMA - The Channel swim?

ALEX - Yeah, there's a bit in that show where I get really emotional talking about my dad. Basically the edit, it cuts before she gives me the cuddle that she gave me, and I didn't see this, I try to avoid that side of social media, but someone commented and said, "I can't believe how heartless his mum is." Oh my god, she tore into them. It was like something in the square in 'EastEnders', "You don't know me, you don't know what I've been through."

EMMA - I'm so glad my mother is not on social media, honestly.

ALEX - My mum… I have a massive respect for what she's been through and like I said, my dad's no longer here, I would have loved to have had that conversation with him. It is a shame, and I think that's probably why I've done it in this documentary is because I feel like I needed to have that conversation. But with Mum it is nice, and when I look back at Great Ormond Street, you know, we've been through a lot together. It's kind of a weird thing, it's like you look at it and you go, cor, they were some tough old times, god, I lost a foot, she was there watching her kid lose a foot. And I'm bad enough with my kids. I mean, god, I take my daughter to go and get her glasses. I panic when she's getting an eye test and it's like, you know, I was going to them, "Look, do you think she's going to need like…?" Because one of the eyes wasn't as strong so, "Do you think she's going to need surgery?" And they're like, "What? No." And I get really panicky, you know. I mean, put it this way, I'm so kind of obsessed. Our fireplace in our house, I foamed the bottom of it, so this beautiful fireplace has just got foam because I've got a thing about one of the kids hitting their head. That's how much I worry.

EMMA - I know.

ALEX - So I think that from her I see that point, I see how hard that must have been.

EMMA - But, you know, as soon as your mother stopped taking you to the hospital you just stopped going. But you were there every… like a million times a year for the first whatever amount of years of your life and as soon as it was up to you you just stopped going.

ALEX - Yeah. No, I did yeah, I binned it off as soon as I was 18.

EMMA - There must be so many disabled people who do that, because the transition between child services and adult services is such a big one and the services are so different. And you don't have someone making all your appointments for you.

ALEX - Do you know what, it was part of me that was just like I just drew the line under it, I thought right, well I'm in charge now, I've had enough operations, that'll do, I'll have one when I need one. And I said that in… In the show we talk about that my leg is bent, my left leg. I wasn't born like that, that was done. That was an operation that was done to me and so…

EMMA - Why did they do that?

ALEX - Weirdly enough, basically it was to align my hips and my knee and my foot up better. But at the same time, so basically what he did was he created a deformity, for want of a better phrase, he created a deformity to cure one. But it didn't really go as we would have wanted. So for me, you've got to bear in mind that was my good leg, for that to suddenly look bent was… Weirdly enough, I know it sounds odd, that's the most conscious I am about my entire body. So not my hands, not my right leg, is my left leg because it's something that I wasn't used to. And again, we talk about the difference between acquiring a disability and being born with it. That is the most self-conscious I am. I cover my leg left up all the time, I have done over the course of my life. So it's the first time where it's not quite gone as we'd have wanted, and then you go, well that's it now, I'm left with that. So I was just like sod the operations, I'm done with all that, I'm not having another one done.

I'll be honest with you, I was going to university, like I wanted to go out and get on it. Going and having four months in a plaster cast just never felt part of that conversation. I started to think about other things. Obviously as I've got older, I visited a consultant for the first time in a long time, and I did think while I was there like I really should have been doing this a lot more. Like this isn't half as bad as what I thought. It's just a conversation with him about what they can do.

EMMA - Did you agree with and were you wholeheartedly happy to have all the operations that you actually had growing up, because as a kid it's really hard isn't it to decide?

ALEX - No, 100%. Every single one was done for a reason. The one in 2003 by the way was the first one I decided to have done.

EMMA - Oh man.

ALEX - Basically what I wanted to do was continue playing football at some sort of level and I just, rather than just do what was told, "Well maybe you might just not be able to do this as much, this might just be one thing," and I kept pushing and pushing and it didn't quite go, and I've been kind of living with that ever since really. So I think that's part of it, but all the other operations… You've got to bear in mind, I haven't seen a consultant about my hands since, I think it is '93 or '94. The last operation on my hands was '93, and that's a long time, a lot of medicine that's gone by. And the big thing with that is I've got good functionality, especially in my left hand, I'm able to drive the car, hold the kids, stuff like that. So I'm not going to roll the dice. They got me to a level where they're like, "Here you go, this is you now, we've done all we can." And I'm very lucky. And do you know what, there are some times when I think to myself, should I not just go and see like a hand, an arm surgeon, maybe just to like…? Just a curiosity, just to go, "By the way, in the last 20, 25 years what's been going on? What can you do now?" I often get asked, "If you could do it all again would you be able bodied?" And I think there's been times in my life where the answer might have been slightly different, but I definitely think now it's like no, I am who I am, for good or bad.

EMMA - So one of the things you did in the documentary was you went to see a helpline for disabled people and you say yourself that you've kind of chugged along and you've been working, you've managed, you've got kids, you've got married, you can drive a car, all these things, what was going to the helpline like? What did you learn?

ALEX - I mean, there's a lot of people in a bad way and like obviously I realise the world has changed significantly this year anyway, but we filmed that last year and there's a lot of disabled people who are really struggling. And that was hard for me to hear, because I know not all disabled people are the same, but at the same time you feel connected in some way and it got to me because it's like that could easily have been me, that could be me that's going through this experience. Okay, I've never had to deal with disability hate crime in public, but my god, I've had it on Twitter. Put it this way, if I'd have had to deal with stuff like that would I be in a position where I want to have a laugh about it on a Friday night? The answer might be slightly different. But I've known for a long time with the stuff about PIP assessments and things like that, and I don't want to get too political in this podcast today but it's pretty shameful, and I've said it many times on television what has gone on with that. And I think that history will come to look back on it and just go, that's pretty disgusting what has happened with the PIP assessments. My own was one of the most degrading things I've ever done, and there has to be a process of assessment, but god, it's been made so much harder, so much harder than what it needs to be. It's hard enough for some disabled people to get around as it is, let alone when your only means of transport is just taken off you like that.

EMMA - So you're talking about the Motability cars is it?

ALEX - Yeah, and I think we talk about just wanting a fair crack, like life's difficult enough as it is without creating a few more hurdles. And I think that that's a big thing, something as simple as transport, the very necessity of getting around should be made easy, yet in this country it's not. And I kind of joke about it in a way, but there is a serious point to be made, like I say, it's bad what's gone on and there should be like a disability uprising, we should all get together, but at the same time half of us wouldn't be able to get there. And it's kind of like a joke but it's true. You look at the London tube system and stuff like that.

EMMA - Okay, so the PIP is Personal Independence Payment which is a payment that deals with the extra costs of being disabled and was changed from Disabled Living Allowance and everyone had to be reassessed and that's what you're talking about. And one of the things that happened was the parameters were changed so that people's Motability cars which is the car that they use part of their benefits to pay for, they were no longer entitled to that anymore which made things difficult for some people. Have I summarised that correctly?

ALEX - Yes, you have, you have. You have very succinctly there. Yeah, very much so, but yeah, sorry, I always… It's weird because I talk about it every day and I realise that it's not the sort of thing that everyone will necessarily know but I remember when I was younger losing my benefits and it was a different government to the one it is now, so I always go, I don't want people going ah, you know, whichever way, you're left leaning or right leaning, depends on what you think about PIP, it's not, it just happens that sometimes things are made more difficult and they shouldn't be.

EMMA - You were talking about not putting extra hurdles in front of yourself, but you did actually attempt to swim the Channel, for a good cause obviously. What was that experience like, Alex?

ALEX - The experience itself was huge for me, and again it was a big reason that led me to doing this documentary, because when we swam in Windermere there was kind of a clip that went round, lots of people saw, of me getting very upset because I couldn't do the swim, I as struggling too much. And I'm not used to struggling and I got really emotional, more emotional in that moment than what I kind of did in this documentary, I really had almost like a breakdown in the water. And I looked at it afterwards and okay yeah, I finished that swim and I'm proud of it because I didn't let my disability beat me, I went right, how can we go about this? What have I got to do? So from that I went in the gym every day working on my core. I was training like, you know, I was training my nuts off to swim. You know, I did that 500 metre swim and struggled, they were like, "Give yourself some time and get back in the water," I was like, "No, we're going back in on…" It was the Sunday that swim, on Tuesday I'm doing it and I'm doing it bloody quicker. And I was like and I'm going to do it all without stopping. So the coach came up and we went to a lake and stuff like that, so there's parts of it I was proud of. But that moment in Windermere is one of the most disabled I have ever felt in my entire life. My body wasn't doing what I wanted it to do, and I got so upset. And it was one of those moments where I looked at it afterwards and I thought, do you know what, maybe people will understand it, but at the same time I wanted to go maybe mate you need to… Next time you may be in a situation where your disability's stopping you doing something you want to do, which it may well happen, you've got to be able to deal with it better. And that's what led me to start asking the questions and, you know, I've done work with a therapist and stuff like that over the last year as well, and I just went right, let's start to think about it. And that's what led me a little bit more closer to doing this documentary, because it was like a really big thing for me. And not just because it was on telly, people saw it, but for me afterwards I just remember saying to them I just felt so disabled, my legs weren't moving. And I'll be honest with you, the reason why my legs weren't moving as much, and my arms, wasn't because I was born the way I was, it was because I had cold water shock because I hadn't given myself enough time to acclimatise, which can happen to anyone. But I'm proud of it and like in the end I worked hard, I became one of the better swimmers in the group, and it was heart-breaking after all that hard work to get, I think it was four and a half miles from Calais. We could see the lights, we swam through the night, and the weather called it off. I think about it. Honestly, I genuinely think about it every single week and I have done since about 'Sink or Swim'.

EMMA - Gosh. You might have to go and do it again?

ALEX - Well, I'm training on my own. The Windermere swim was a 500 metre swim and I did it in 45 minutes. Obviously I stopped a lot to get upset, [laughter] but I did it in 45 minutes. And a couple of weeks ago I did 1100 metres, so I did over double that distance in 26 point something.

EMMA - Wow.

ALEX - So like I am now a far better swimmer than what I was when I did the swim. I do like a physical challenge. I've just started getting on… I've got one of those spin bikes, and I've really been smashing that because I want to try and beat some of my mates on it. I'm so competitive.

EMMA - Oh, you've got one of those apps that tells you how quick other people have done and how far other people have gone?

ALEX - Yeah, exactly. So the other week I wanted to beat my mate and I realised I'd left it too late and I didn't have a lot left in the tank so I had to crank the resistance up full and sprint flat out for two minutes at a really high resistance, having already… By the way, this is at the end of a 45 minute spin class. I was sick all over the floor. But I beat him. And my wife came in and she'd heard me and she thought there was something really wrong. She didn't even say anything, she walked straight back out and then came back in again with some anti bac, some kitchen towel and a load of wipes and just threw it down in a plastic bag and walked back out again.

EMMA - We're always talking about disability identity and we try not to talk about it for too long because it just gets really language-y and boring and dull, but you know, it does say in the blurb for this documentary that it discusses identity.

ALEX - Obviously I clearly don't shy away from my identity as a disabled person. I think it's like anything though, it's very nuanced. Just because we're all disabled it doesn't mean we all have to agree on language. It's like anything, some people like certain phrases, some people don't, and some people like certain approaches and some people don't. And I think that that's a fair argument to have. Some people may watch the documentary and think some bits are like, oh I wouldn't joke about that, and to those people, just to let you know, my mum's going to end up tweeting you. [laughter] So don't tweet it because you'll have her on your case. So just to warn you, if you don't like it don't say on social media, 'cos that woman is going to be all over it. As I said in this documentary, at the start I never thought to myself oh, I'm going to be able to say at the end of this I've completed disability now. Just because I've got a platform I still don't believe everything I do is that's how you have to do it. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that. But at the same time I just wanted to gather a better understanding in general and maybe educate myself a little bit, which I know sounds weird because I've been disabled all my life.

EMMA - And did you?

ALEX - I think I have, I certainly think I have. As I said, my own attitude to my own disability is as positive as it has been throughout my entire life personally. And I think in general it was meeting other people, other disabled people in there. Seeing Andy again from school after 25 odd years, meeting Lee from Arsenal who'd acquired his disability and his whole life changed in the space of one night. And going to Scope, I think those things, they were enriching experiences for me and it made me realise more so than ever really that disability is such a broad subject and we all have our own different experiences and to be appreciative and almost mindful of that really.

[Music]

EMMA - Thank you so much to Alex Brooker for that really lovely chat. 'Alex Brooker, Disability and Me', will be available to watch on BBC2 on 5th July at 9pm and afterwards of course on BBC iPlayer. You can find all the Ouch podcasts on BBC Sounds, please do subscribe, and you can get in touch with us by email on [e-mail]. We're BBC Ouch on Facebook and on Twitter. Goodbye.