Video caption: 'It wrecked my life' - Post Office victim'It wrecked my life' - Post Office victim
The first guest on Breakfast is Tom Hedges, who ran a Post Office in Skegness from 1994, until he was convicted of stealing £23,000 - a conviction that was later quashed.
He says this is a day he's been looking forward to - but adds the scandal "wrecked" his life.
He says his family's life was also destroyed. "It's the most horrendous thing," he adds.
BreakingPost Office victims speak live
BBCCopyright: BBC
On BBC Breakfast, we're about to hear from eight former sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses caught up in the scandal - and the son of one former worker.
We will hear from:
Varchas Patel
Sally Stringer
Maria Lockwood
Scott Darlington
Mohammed Rasul
Tom Hedges
Tim Brentnall
Alison Hall
Janet Skinner
You can watch by clicking Play at the top of this page.
Post Office were hellbent in not helping me - victim
Here's some more from former sub-postmaster Lee Castleton's powerful interview on BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
His Horizon account would swing between profit and loss from week to week - but despite over 90 calls to the Post Office over 12 weeks, he couldn't get any help.
"I really did feel that if somebody came to the office and I could show them the paperwork and explained the situation, we would be able to find a remedy and find out why this was occurring.
"But the Post Office were absolutely hellbent in not helping me and I realise that now more than ever.
"But obviously at the time, I felt kind of as if I wasn't explaining it properly and that people didn't really understand the severity of where I was finding myself."
After losing his business, Castleton began working on building sites - but found many companies would not employ him because of his bankruptcy.
Forced to travel far afield for work, he spent weeks sleeping in his car because he could not afford a hotel.
"Life became really difficult," he says.
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
Lee Castleton was played by Will Mellor in the recent ITV showImage caption: Lee Castleton was played by Will Mellor in the recent ITV show
Women miscarried, children were spat on - victims' lawyer
BBCCopyright: BBC
Lawyer Neil Hudgell has been involved in the case since 2019, and represents many of those caught up in the scandal.
"The country has woke up to the hideous scandal that this is all about," he tells BBC Breakfast.
"The overwhelming feeling is revulsion towards the Post Office and an outpouring of sympathy for these hideously scarred people.
"We don't really know the size of the victim pool. We've got wives who have miscarried children because of stress, children spat on in school who have behavioural issues."
Going forward, Hudgell says there are many options - including the mass quashing of convictions - but adds it isn't simple.
"But that doesn't quash a conviction, it's a sort of halfway house. I'm not sure any solution fits all."
'My children were bullied and had to move schools'
BBCCopyright: BBC
Lee Castleton, who bought a Post Office in Bridlington in 2003Image caption: Lee Castleton, who bought a Post Office in Bridlington in 2003
Lee Castleton from Bridlington is one of the sub-postmasters portrayed in the ITV drama.
He was forced to declare bankruptcy after Horizon told the Post Office he had racked up tens of thousands of pounds in losses.
He tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme the fallout made his life hell.
"It was devastating. My son was six, my daughter was eight. It was just very difficult.
"They were bullied. They had to move schools, which led to them having to come to a school in the area, where obviously everyone knew their father.
"We would get stopped in the street by people saying terrible things, awful things, like that I'd stolen money from old people, saying that I'd stolen pension money."
He said his daughter's teenage year's were "particularly difficult" and she suffered anxiety issues and an eating disorder.
"It reaches into the very farthest corners of your life."
Horizon system still used by Post Office
Horizon was introduced into the Post Office network from 1999. The software, developed by the Japanese company Fujitsu, was used for tasks such as transactions, accounting and stocktaking.
Sub-postmasters complained about bugs in the system after it reported shortfalls. Some attempted to plug the gap with their own money - because their contracts stated they were responsible for shortfalls.
So far, nobody at the Post Office, or at Fujitsu, has been held accountable. The Horizon system is still used by the Post Office - which describes the latest version as "robust".
Fujitsu 'still runs the core functions of half the country'
ReutersCopyright: Reuters
As we just heard from Tony (see our last post), the Horizon software from Fujitsu is at the centre of the Post Office scandal.
Karl Flinders is chief reporter at Computer Weekly magazine, which first became aware of problems with Horizon in 2004, and published its first investigation in 2009.
Asked by BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he thinks Fujitsu could be held to account, he says: "The cynical side of me says Fujitsu will continue to win lucrative IT systems with the government...it has big deals with HMRC, the Home Office, the Foreign Office, all recently signed.
"It runs the core functions of half the country.
"My hope is that [the government] will claw back some of the taxpayers' money that has been wasted to sort out this mess but I’m not sure how straightforward that will be."
Post Office knew about the problems, says Royal Mail insider
Our colleagues at BBC Radio 5 Live have spoken to a Royal Mail insider, who says he became aware of problems with the Post Office's software "almost immediately" while working for Royal Mail's technology leadership team from 2007-09.
The Post Office used to be part of Royal Mail, but became independent in 2012.
Tony (not his real name) says he never worked on Horizon - the Fujitsu software at the centre of this scandal - but his team were "certainly discussing the fact that Horizon was problematic and needed to be replaced".
Asked whether he thought Adam Crozier - CEO of Royal Mail from 2003-10 - would have known about the IT issues, Tony adds he would "struggle to think" Crozier didn't.
In a statement to 5 Live, Crozier says:
Quote Message: I would like to express my heartfelt sympathies to the individuals and families who were so wronged by the tragic miscarriages of justice and for whom justice has been denied so long.
I would like to express my heartfelt sympathies to the individuals and families who were so wronged by the tragic miscarriages of justice and for whom justice has been denied so long.
Quote Message: I can only imagine it must have been a dreadful experience for everyone concerned. While I did not have any involvement in the Horizon issue during my time at Royal Mail, I feel deeply sorry for those whose lives were ruined by what happened and stand ready to participate in the inquiry’s continued efforts to make sure this tragic situation never happens again."
I can only imagine it must have been a dreadful experience for everyone concerned. While I did not have any involvement in the Horizon issue during my time at Royal Mail, I feel deeply sorry for those whose lives were ruined by what happened and stand ready to participate in the inquiry’s continued efforts to make sure this tragic situation never happens again."
ReutersCopyright: Reuters
Adam Crozier, pictured in 2010Image caption: Adam Crozier, pictured in 2010
Analysis
What could the government do?
Dominic Casciani
Home and legal correspondent
A Royal Pardon: The King still has the power to grant a pardon - although it is reserved for truly exceptional cases that can't be easily returned to court.
But it's little more than a symbolic act. It does not quash the criminal conviction, only the Court of Appeal can do that. So some may feel a Royal Pardon does not wash away the stain of criminality.
A one-off law exonerating all: Justice Secretary Alex Chalk says he's considering this. The "separation of powers" between the courts and Parliament make this difficult. But all the miscarriages relate to the same simple allegation that the Post Office hid the truth about the Horizon system's flaws - and therefore a one-off Act of Parliament to quash all of the convictions could be justified.
But there's some concern it could have unintended consequences, and that it paves the way for future politicians to do it again - and perhaps next time for their pals.
Speed up existing appeals: The Criminal Cases Review Commission sent 42 Post Office cases to judges after an earlier ruling showed the Horizon system was flawed - the Court of Appeal exonerated 39 people in one go. Professor Graham Zellick, the CCRC's former chair, says this "could do the job very quickly".
But of the 157 Post Office cases the CCRC has looked at, it has rejected 50 applicants. The CCRC applies a controversial and strict legal test which essentially tries to guess what the Court of Appeal will rule - and so its critics say it too often rejects pleas for help.
I was the only one having computer problems, Post Office said
BBCCopyright: BBC
We're also going to hear later from Tim Brentnall, from Pembrokeshire.
He was 22 when he and his parents bought the Post Office shop in Roch. The plan was for him to have an income to help him stay in the area where he grew up.
But he was prosecuted in 2010 after a £22,000 shortfall was discovered at his branch - and he was advised to plead guilty.
His parents took out a loan to pay the money, but he was prosecuted for false accounting shortly afterwards.
Brentnall - like many others - was told by the Post Office he was the only one having computer problems.
"I didn't have any
idea that it could be a computer problem," he says. "But I knew I hadn't been dishonest."
I missed my dad's funeral after a wrongful conviction
BBCCopyright: BBC
We are going to hear from eight sub-postmasters later this morning, and the son of another who died.
As we mentioned earlier, they include Mohammed Rasul from Salford, who ran a Post Office for almost 20 years when he was suspended in 2005.
He was prosecuted two years later and, after convction, was given an electronic GPS tag and a curfew.
Due to that curfew, Rasul, from Salford, missed saying goodbye to his dying father.
Speaking outside the High Court after his conviction was overturned in April 2021, Rasul said: "The main problem I had once I was suspended, was not being able to look customers in the eye."
A timeline of the Post Office scandal
ITVCopyright: ITV
1999: The Horizon accounting system is rolled out in Post Offices across the UK
2000: The first issue with the system is reported by Alan Bates, sub-postmaster of a branch in Wales
2003: Bates loses his job after refusing to accept responsibility for missing funds in the branch accounts
2004: More sub-postmasters find themselves asked questions about missing funds - at times in the tens of thousands of pounds. Jobs are lost, some are declared bankrupt and some eventually sent to prison
2010: A high-profile case of wrongful conviction occurs - pregnant Surrey sub-postmaster Seema Misra is jailed after being accused of stealing £74,000
2012: Formal investigations into the Horizon software begin
2015: The Post Office halts private prosecutions of sub-postmasters
2017: Legal action is launched against the Post Office by a group of 555 sub-postmasters
2019: Post Office CEO Paula Vennells stands down, before the company agrees to pay £58m to the 555 sub-postmasters
2021: The first inquiry into the scandal begins
2023: The government announces that every wrongly convicted sub-postmaster will be offered £600,000 in compensation
2024: There's a resurgence of interest in the scandal after ITV releases a mini-series titled Mr Bates vs the Post Office. Vennells hands back her CBE
Good morning
Sam Hancock
Live reporter
Today eight former sub-postmasters and postmistresses, plus a relative, are speaking to BBC Breakfast about the Post Office scandal.
They include Mohammed Rasul who, after working for the Post Office for 27 years, was suspended in 2005 and prosecuted for false accounting.
Two years later he was given an electronic GPS tag and a curfew. He missed saying goodbye to his dying father due to the curfew - something he says he can never forget.
His conviction was later overturned, as it was entirely based on a faulty IT system
At 12:00 GMT, Rishi Sunak is due in the House of Commons for Prime Minister's Questions (PMQs), where he’ll be asked about the issue and what the government is doing to clear the names of the hundreds of people whose convictions still stand.
I'm here with colleagues Owen Amos and Thomas Mackintosh to keep you up to date, so stay tuned.
Live Reporting
Edited by Emily McGarvey
All times stated are UK
Get involved
'My life was wrecked' - Post Office victim
Video content
The first guest on Breakfast is Tom Hedges, who ran a Post Office in Skegness from 1994, until he was convicted of stealing £23,000 - a conviction that was later quashed.
He says this is a day he's been looking forward to - but adds the scandal "wrecked" his life.
He says his family's life was also destroyed. "It's the most horrendous thing," he adds.
BreakingPost Office victims speak live
On BBC Breakfast, we're about to hear from eight former sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses caught up in the scandal - and the son of one former worker.
We will hear from:
You can watch by clicking Play at the top of this page.
Post Office were hellbent in not helping me - victim
Here's some more from former sub-postmaster Lee Castleton's powerful interview on BBC Radio 4's Today programme.
His Horizon account would swing between profit and loss from week to week - but despite over 90 calls to the Post Office over 12 weeks, he couldn't get any help.
"I really did feel that if somebody came to the office and I could show them the paperwork and explained the situation, we would be able to find a remedy and find out why this was occurring.
"But the Post Office were absolutely hellbent in not helping me and I realise that now more than ever.
"But obviously at the time, I felt kind of as if I wasn't explaining it properly and that people didn't really understand the severity of where I was finding myself."
After losing his business, Castleton began working on building sites - but found many companies would not employ him because of his bankruptcy.
Forced to travel far afield for work, he spent weeks sleeping in his car because he could not afford a hotel.
"Life became really difficult," he says.
Women miscarried, children were spat on - victims' lawyer
Lawyer Neil Hudgell has been involved in the case since 2019, and represents many of those caught up in the scandal.
"The country has woke up to the hideous scandal that this is all about," he tells BBC Breakfast.
"The overwhelming feeling is revulsion towards the Post Office and an outpouring of sympathy for these hideously scarred people.
"We don't really know the size of the victim pool. We've got wives who have miscarried children because of stress, children spat on in school who have behavioural issues."
Going forward, Hudgell says there are many options - including the mass quashing of convictions - but adds it isn't simple.
"Another option is the royal prerogative and I have some experience of that with Steve Gallant who was one of the Fishmongers' Hall rescuers [in November 2019].
"But that doesn't quash a conviction, it's a sort of halfway house. I'm not sure any solution fits all."
'My children were bullied and had to move schools'
Lee Castleton from Bridlington is one of the sub-postmasters portrayed in the ITV drama.
He was forced to declare bankruptcy after Horizon told the Post Office he had racked up tens of thousands of pounds in losses.
He tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme the fallout made his life hell.
"It was devastating. My son was six, my daughter was eight. It was just very difficult.
"They were bullied. They had to move schools, which led to them having to come to a school in the area, where obviously everyone knew their father.
"We would get stopped in the street by people saying terrible things, awful things, like that I'd stolen money from old people, saying that I'd stolen pension money."
He said his daughter's teenage year's were "particularly difficult" and she suffered anxiety issues and an eating disorder.
"It reaches into the very farthest corners of your life."
Horizon system still used by Post Office
Horizon was introduced into the Post Office network from 1999. The software, developed by the Japanese company Fujitsu, was used for tasks such as transactions, accounting and stocktaking.
Sub-postmasters complained about bugs in the system after it reported shortfalls. Some attempted to plug the gap with their own money - because their contracts stated they were responsible for shortfalls.
So far, nobody at the Post Office, or at Fujitsu, has been held accountable. The Horizon system is still used by the Post Office - which describes the latest version as "robust".
Fujitsu 'still runs the core functions of half the country'
As we just heard from Tony (see our last post), the Horizon software from Fujitsu is at the centre of the Post Office scandal.
Karl Flinders is chief reporter at Computer Weekly magazine, which first became aware of problems with Horizon in 2004, and published its first investigation in 2009.
Asked by BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he thinks Fujitsu could be held to account, he says: "The cynical side of me says Fujitsu will continue to win lucrative IT systems with the government...it has big deals with HMRC, the Home Office, the Foreign Office, all recently signed.
"It runs the core functions of half the country.
"My hope is that [the government] will claw back some of the taxpayers' money that has been wasted to sort out this mess but I’m not sure how straightforward that will be."
Post Office knew about the problems, says Royal Mail insider
Our colleagues at BBC Radio 5 Live have spoken to a Royal Mail insider, who says he became aware of problems with the Post Office's software "almost immediately" while working for Royal Mail's technology leadership team from 2007-09.
The Post Office used to be part of Royal Mail, but became independent in 2012.
Tony (not his real name) says he never worked on Horizon - the Fujitsu software at the centre of this scandal - but his team were "certainly discussing the fact that Horizon was problematic and needed to be replaced".
Asked whether he thought Adam Crozier - CEO of Royal Mail from 2003-10 - would have known about the IT issues, Tony adds he would "struggle to think" Crozier didn't.
In a statement to 5 Live, Crozier says:
What could the government do?
Dominic Casciani
Home and legal correspondent
A Royal Pardon: The King still has the power to grant a pardon - although it is reserved for truly exceptional cases that can't be easily returned to court.
A one-off law exonerating all: Justice Secretary Alex Chalk says he's considering this. The "separation of powers" between the courts and Parliament make this difficult. But all the miscarriages relate to the same simple allegation that the Post Office hid the truth about the Horizon system's flaws - and therefore a one-off Act of Parliament to quash all of the convictions could be justified.
Speed up existing appeals: The Criminal Cases Review Commission sent 42 Post Office cases to judges after an earlier ruling showed the Horizon system was flawed - the Court of Appeal exonerated 39 people in one go. Professor Graham Zellick, the CCRC's former chair, says this "could do the job very quickly".
Read more on all this here.
I was the only one having computer problems, Post Office said
We're also going to hear later from Tim Brentnall, from Pembrokeshire.
He was 22 when he and his parents bought the Post Office shop in Roch. The plan was for him to have an income to help him stay in the area where he grew up.
But he was prosecuted in 2010 after a £22,000 shortfall was discovered at his branch - and he was advised to plead guilty.
His parents took out a loan to pay the money, but he was prosecuted for false accounting shortly afterwards.
Brentnall - like many others - was told by the Post Office he was the only one having computer problems.
"I didn't have any idea that it could be a computer problem," he says. "But I knew I hadn't been dishonest."
I missed my dad's funeral after a wrongful conviction
We are going to hear from eight sub-postmasters later this morning, and the son of another who died.
As we mentioned earlier, they include Mohammed Rasul from Salford, who ran a Post Office for almost 20 years when he was suspended in 2005.
He was prosecuted two years later and, after convction, was given an electronic GPS tag and a curfew.
Due to that curfew, Rasul, from Salford, missed saying goodbye to his dying father.
Speaking outside the High Court after his conviction was overturned in April 2021, Rasul said: "The main problem I had once I was suspended, was not being able to look customers in the eye."
A timeline of the Post Office scandal
Good morning
Sam Hancock
Live reporter
Today eight former sub-postmasters and postmistresses, plus a relative, are speaking to BBC Breakfast about the Post Office scandal.
They include Mohammed Rasul who, after working for the Post Office for 27 years, was suspended in 2005 and prosecuted for false accounting.
Two years later he was given an electronic GPS tag and a curfew. He missed saying goodbye to his dying father due to the curfew - something he says he can never forget.
His conviction was later overturned, as it was entirely based on a faulty IT system
At 12:00 GMT, Rishi Sunak is due in the House of Commons for Prime Minister's Questions (PMQs), where he’ll be asked about the issue and what the government is doing to clear the names of the hundreds of people whose convictions still stand.
I'm here with colleagues Owen Amos and Thomas Mackintosh to keep you up to date, so stay tuned.