Starmer: CPS only dealt with 'handful' of Post Office prosecutions
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
Starmer speaks to dental students and staff during a visit to Bury college in LancashireImage caption: Starmer speaks to dental students and staff during a visit to Bury college in Lancashire
We're turning our attention away from the inquiry very briefly to bring you some comments from Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer - the former Director of Public Prosecutions.
He tells journalists during a visit to dental students in Bury that only "three of so" of prosecutions linked to the Post Office scandal may have been handled by the Crown Prosecution Service during his tenure as its head.
"The vast majority of these...were Post Office prosecutions brought by the Post Office in relation to their cases," Starmer says.
He adds it was "not even known what the detail of those cases are and it needs to be put in its context - in the five years I was director of public prosecutions I had 7,000 staff and we handled four million cases. So this was a handful, within that.
"More details will emerge no doubt... it's not clear whether they're in the cohort of cases of concern or not."
Inquiry taking a brief break from 'super dry' details
We are on a brief break from proceedings - but not before counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC issues a warning about one topic being focused on - the Post Office's email systems: "I'm afraid this is super dry."
This very technical part might go on for some time, but we'll bring you any stand-out lines.
Falsely jailed postmaster 'still embarrassed' over time in jail
BBCCopyright: BBC
Harjinder Butoy served an 18-month term, prompting his Post Office branch to be shut downImage caption: Harjinder Butoy served an 18-month term, prompting his Post Office branch to be shut down
While we are listening to some quite technical details about Post Office documents and their disclosure to the inquiry, it is also worth highlighting some of the personal cases of people caught up in the Horizon IT scandal.
One ex-sub-postmaster the BBC has been talking to is Harjinder Butoy from Derbyshire, who was jailed after being wrongfully convicted of stealing £208,000.
He says every day behind bars he thought "I should not be here".
Butoy served an 18-month term, prompting his Post Office branch to be shut down.
Butoy, who ran the post office in Sutton-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire with his wife for five years, said when he was in jail "all I kept thinking was, 'How I am going to clear my name?'
"I used to wake up every day in prison thinking, 'What am I doing here? I shouldn't be here'."
Lawyer challenged on 'flawed approach' to disclosure
Discussion now turns to a letter from Chris Jackson's legal practice which was sent to the inquiry on 16 October 2023 and also about the disclosure of documents.
There is an update about some "remediation and assurance exercises" which involved the review of 402,000 documents - and the production of more than 11,300 documents.
Beer says of those 402,000 documents 2.82% were disclosed.
Beer then says: "Looking at this now, does it appear to be a flawed approach?"
"No," Jackson replies.
Post Office lawyer apologises for delays in document disclosures
Zoe Conway
Live reporter at the Post Office inquiry
Today's hearing has begun with an apology.
Chris
Jackson, the lawyer acting for the Post Office, has apologised for delays in the
disclosure of documents.
He is being questioned by the lead counsel to the Inquiry, Jason Beer KC.
Late last year, Beer accused the Post
Office of "standing in the way of the inquiry and preventing progress".
Jackson, and the law firm he works for - Burges Salmon - has been brought in to help the Post Office ensure they are disclosing the evidence the
inquiry needs.
In this morning's exchange, Beer reminded the inquiry that
there have not just been problems with disclosure during this inquiry.
The Post
Office has also been accused, in several court cases, of failing to produce
evidence.
Focus turns to how Post Office managed its data
Post Office Horizon IT InquiryCopyright: Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry
Asking the questions today is Jason Beer KC, counsel to the inquiryImage caption: Asking the questions today is Jason Beer KC, counsel to the inquiry
We are now hearing Jason Beer KC reading from a part of Jackson's witness statement.
It says: "Historic data governance problems, many of which were embedded in the Post Office's data landscape over many years, have risen to the surface under the scrutiny of the inquiry and Post Office's internal and external Inquiry teams."
Jackson says this refers to a 25-year period for the company where, as in other industries, IT was rapidly developing.
He's asked what he means by data governance and Jackson says it means "knowing what is where".
Beer suggest it's about internal standards, policies, how data is stored, processed and retained and should include accountability.
He then presses Jackson to explain the particular data governance problems identified in the Post Office.
Jackson says it can be "summarised as not a full map of systems, and what is where, and how it has evolved over time."
Evidence will aim to bring out 'truth and facts'
Jackson's witness statement is brought up on the inquiry's screen - one section reads: "The current situation is not one anyone would wish to see."
It adds that the Post Office "has asked me to convey its apologies for [the] current situation".
Jackson says there are two objectives. The first, to give the inquiry the evidence it requires to bring out "the truth and facts". The second, so that the hearings can run on a stable case management basis.
We are hearing about Post Office lawyer's background
Jason Beer KC says he wants to look at Chris Jackson's background and reads out a brief list of positions he has held in his career.
His company Burges Salmon, along with the law firm fieldfisher, was appointed to act for the Post Office in May 2023.
Jackson confirms that he took over as the Post Office's legal representative (RLR) on 1 September of that year.
Discussions will be 'rather dry', lawyer tells inquiry
Counsel to the inquiry, Jason Beer KC, opens the evidence session with general questions about the witness statement supplied by Chris Jackson, the lawyer representing the Post Office.
Jackson first confirms his submission of a 99-page statement.
Beer says three topics will be covered across today's session, with the issues up for discussion likely to be "rather dry", he says.
He adds that disclosure of documents "is the lifeblood of the inquiry".
Beer says 218 issues have been identified and that "fulsome and timely disclosure" is important because "securing testing and challenging evidence relies on getting these materials".
Jackson says he understands fully.
Post Office lawyer sworn in at inquiry
The inquiry session has begun and Chris Jackson, partner at Burges Salmon and the lawyer representing the Post Office, is being sworn in.
The inquiry will now begin hearing his evidence.
Remember, you can watch along live by clicking Play at the top of this page and we'll bring you text updates here.
Post Office Horizon IT inquiryCopyright: Post Office Horizon IT inquiry
Why is the Post Office scandal back in the news?
ITVCopyright: ITV
The ITV series ‘Mr Bates Vs The Post Office’ has thrust the Post Office scandal into the national consciousness.
The show came out on New Year’s Day and follows the real story of postmaster Alan Bates and the legal battle he led and won against the Post Office.
Since the series aired on 1 January, more than 100 other potential victims have contacted their lawyers, claiming they were wrongly prosecuted by the institution.
The government announced plans to clear the names of hundreds of people wrongly convicted in the scandal.
A timeline of the Post Office scandal
1999: The Horizon accounting system is rolled out in Post Offices across the UK
2000: The first issue with the system is reported by Alan Bates, sub-postmaster of a branch in Wales
2003: Bates loses his job after refusing to accept responsibility for missing funds in the branch accounts
2004: More sub-postmasters find themselves asked questions about missing funds - at times in the tens of thousands of pounds. Jobs are lost, some are declared bankrupt and some eventually sent to prison
2010: A high-profile case of wrongful conviction occurs - pregnant Surrey sub-postmaster Seema Misra is jailed after being accused of stealing £74,000
2012: Formal investigations into the Horizon software begin
2015: The Post Office halts private prosecutions of sub-postmasters
2017: Legal action is launched against the Post Office by a group of 555 sub-postmasters
2019: Post Office CEO Paula Vennells stands down, before the company agrees to pay £58m to the 555 sub-postmasters
2021: The first inquiry into the scandal begins
2023: The government announces that every wrongly convicted sub-postmaster will be offered £600,000 in compensation
2024: There's a resurgence of interest in the scandal after ITV releases a mini-series titled Mr Bates vs the Post Office. Vennells hands back her CBE
'I've lost my business, my savings, my reputation - everything'
Sarah Burgess-BoydeCopyright: Sarah Burgess-Boyde
BBC Radio 4's Today programme spoke yesterday to former sub-postmistress Sarah Burgess-Boyde, who lost her life savings when she had to repay an incorrect shortfall in her branch takings.
In an emotional interview, she said she now doesn't have a penny to her name and, at 60, is not future-proofed.
"I've lost my business, all my savings. I've lost my reputation I've lost everything," she said, through tears.
She said an upfront compensation payment of £75,000 that the government is offering is not enough - and she should be entitled to enough to allow her to live her life had she not been forced into this position by the Post Office.
"I've had 15 years of living hand-to-mouth and I had a thriving business - and it's all gone," she added.
Asked about the public inquiry, Burgess-Boyde said she has doubts that it's going deep enough and asking the right questions of the right people.
Of the Post Office, she said: "They seem to be absolutely incapable of just saying we got it really wrong and we're going to put it right - they don't seem to know or care what they've done to hundreds of people".
How to watch the inquiry
The Post Office inquiry is just about to get started.
We're expecting to hear first from Chris Jackson, a partner at the law firm Burges Salmon which represents the Post Office.
You can watch all the latest from Aldwych House by pressing Play at the top of the page.
Nadhim Zahawi was paid £750 for ITV drama cameo
ITVCopyright: ITV
Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi was paid £750 for his appearance in the ITV drama about the Post Office IT scandal, parliament records show.
In the drama, Zahawi plays himself questioning then-Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells in a 2015 Commons committee inquiry into the Horizon computer system.
Last week, Zahawi told the BBC he agreed to a "cameo" appearance in Mr Bates vs The Post Office "for free and for any fees to be donated to charity".
The parliament records dated to September 2023 show a payment for his appearance on a drama and the fee was paid direct to charity.
How will the compensation work?
Sean Seddon
Journalist
The government has announced plans to overturn the convictions of more than 900 people linked to the Post Office scandal.
More than 4,000 people in total have been told they are eligible for compensation.
The three main schemes are aimed at groups of victims who had different experiences of the scandal.
The Group Litigation Order (GLO) scheme was set up to ensure they received extra money to reflect the gravity of their situations.
The Overturned Convictions scheme is set for those whose convictions are overturned and they can choose to take a fast-tracked £600,000 settlement, or can enter into negotiations if they feel they are entitled to more.
The Horizon Shortfall Scheme is intended for those sub-postmasters who weren't convicted or part of the GLO court action. It is administered by the Post Office.
Ex-postmaster says hundreds may have repaid losses
BBCCopyright: BBC
Bob Child repaid £600 when the books would not balance 20 years agoImage caption: Bob Child repaid £600 when the books would not balance 20 years ago
The BBC has been hearing the stories of ex-postmasters and postmistresses and how the Horizon IT scandal affected their personal and working lives. Bob Child is one of them.
The 79-year-old ran a post office in Melbourn, Cambridgeshire, and said he personally repaid £600 when the books would not balance 20 years ago.
He remembered getting calls from other sub-postmasters who were worried about the same financial issues.
He said at the time he had not made the link to the introduction of the Horizon IT system.
"When we did the books with a pen and paper, you'd occasionally be a few pounds over or under, but nothing much," he said.
"In about 2002, a few years after Horizon was introduced, we had a shortfall of £600. I couldn't understand and repaid it with my own money."
What is the Post Office inquiry?
The Post Office inquiry is an independent public statutory inquiry. It began in February 2021 with the aim of gathering a clear account of the failings of the Horizon IT system.
The faulty software was supplied to the Post Office by Fujitsu and introduced in 1999.
It was used for tasks like accounting and stocktaking. Within a year, sub-postmasters complained about bugs in the system after it falsely reported shortfalls - often for many thousands of pounds.
Between 1999 and 2015, the Post Office prosecuted hundreds of sub-postmasters and mistresses after the Horizon system made it look like money was missing. There were more than 900 convictions linked to the scandal over 16 years, with only 93 so far being overturned.
The government has pledged to bring in a new law to "swiftly exonerate and compensate victims" of the scandal.
The aim of the inquiry is to understand what went wrong, and what lessons can be learned.
It will look into how the the Post Office used information from Horizon in the legal cases against sub-postmasters.
Post Office lied and threatened BBC over whistleblower
BBCCopyright: BBC
It has emerged that the Post Office threatened and lied to the BBC in a failed effort to suppress key evidence that helped clear postmasters in the Horizon scandal.
Senior managers tried to smear postmasters before Panorama broadcast an interview in 2015 with a Fujitsu whistleblower.
Former insider Richard Roll revealed accounts on the Horizon computer system could be secretly altered. The Post Office declined to comment while the public inquiry is ongoing.
The BBC can reveal that in the period leading up to the broadcast of Trouble at the Post Office, the 2015 Panorama programme featuring the whistleblower testimony:
Experts interviewed by the BBC were sent intimidating letters by Post Office lawyers about their participation in the programme
Senior Post Office managers briefed the BBC that neither their staff nor Fujitsu - the company which built and maintained the Horizon system - could remotely access sub-postmasters' accounts, even though Post Office directors had been warned four years earlier that such remote access was possible
Lawyers for the Post Office sent letters threatening to sue Panorama and the company's public relations boss Mark Davies escalated complaints to ever more senior BBC managers
You can read more about that BBC Panorama story here.
Who is the lawyer giving evidence today?
BBCCopyright: BBC
Today we’ll be hearing from Chris Jackson, a partner at Burges Salmon law firm, who has been called as the legal representative of the Post Office.
Jackson’s experience as a lawyer spans from economic and safety regulation to public inquiries and inquests, the law firms website states.
His firm replaced Herbert Smith Freehills as the Post Office’s legal representation in the Horizon IT inquiry last year.
Inquiry chair Sir Wyn Williams ordered today’s inquiry to look into the Post Office’ disclosure of evidence after Herbert Smith Freehills and KPMG revealed process failings relating to its disclosure process.
Williams said there is a need for "close monitoring of the disclosure process" during the remainder of the inquiry.
Live Reporting
Edited by Emily McGarvey and Paul Gribben
All times stated are UK
Get involved
Starmer: CPS only dealt with 'handful' of Post Office prosecutions
We're turning our attention away from the inquiry very briefly to bring you some comments from Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer - the former Director of Public Prosecutions.
He tells journalists during a visit to dental students in Bury that only "three of so" of prosecutions linked to the Post Office scandal may have been handled by the Crown Prosecution Service during his tenure as its head.
"The vast majority of these...were Post Office prosecutions brought by the Post Office in relation to their cases," Starmer says.
He adds it was "not even known what the detail of those cases are and it needs to be put in its context - in the five years I was director of public prosecutions I had 7,000 staff and we handled four million cases. So this was a handful, within that.
"More details will emerge no doubt... it's not clear whether they're in the cohort of cases of concern or not."
Inquiry taking a brief break from 'super dry' details
We are on a brief break from proceedings - but not before counsel to the inquiry Jason Beer KC issues a warning about one topic being focused on - the Post Office's email systems: "I'm afraid this is super dry."
This very technical part might go on for some time, but we'll bring you any stand-out lines.
Falsely jailed postmaster 'still embarrassed' over time in jail
While we are listening to some quite technical details about Post Office documents and their disclosure to the inquiry, it is also worth highlighting some of the personal cases of people caught up in the Horizon IT scandal.
One ex-sub-postmaster the BBC has been talking to is Harjinder Butoy from Derbyshire, who was jailed after being wrongfully convicted of stealing £208,000.
He says every day behind bars he thought "I should not be here".
Butoy served an 18-month term, prompting his Post Office branch to be shut down.
Butoy, who ran the post office in Sutton-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire with his wife for five years, said when he was in jail "all I kept thinking was, 'How I am going to clear my name?'
"I used to wake up every day in prison thinking, 'What am I doing here? I shouldn't be here'."
Lawyer challenged on 'flawed approach' to disclosure
Discussion now turns to a letter from Chris Jackson's legal practice which was sent to the inquiry on 16 October 2023 and also about the disclosure of documents.
There is an update about some "remediation and assurance exercises" which involved the review of 402,000 documents - and the production of more than 11,300 documents.
Beer says of those 402,000 documents 2.82% were disclosed.
Beer then says: "Looking at this now, does it appear to be a flawed approach?"
"No," Jackson replies.
Post Office lawyer apologises for delays in document disclosures
Zoe Conway
Live reporter at the Post Office inquiry
Today's hearing has begun with an apology.
Chris Jackson, the lawyer acting for the Post Office, has apologised for delays in the disclosure of documents.
He is being questioned by the lead counsel to the Inquiry, Jason Beer KC.
Late last year, Beer accused the Post Office of "standing in the way of the inquiry and preventing progress".
Jackson, and the law firm he works for - Burges Salmon - has been brought in to help the Post Office ensure they are disclosing the evidence the inquiry needs.
In this morning's exchange, Beer reminded the inquiry that there have not just been problems with disclosure during this inquiry.
The Post Office has also been accused, in several court cases, of failing to produce evidence.
Focus turns to how Post Office managed its data
We are now hearing Jason Beer KC reading from a part of Jackson's witness statement.
It says: "Historic data governance problems, many of which were embedded in the Post Office's data landscape over many years, have risen to the surface under the scrutiny of the inquiry and Post Office's internal and external Inquiry teams."
Jackson says this refers to a 25-year period for the company where, as in other industries, IT was rapidly developing.
He's asked what he means by data governance and Jackson says it means "knowing what is where".
Beer suggest it's about internal standards, policies, how data is stored, processed and retained and should include accountability.
He then presses Jackson to explain the particular data governance problems identified in the Post Office.
Jackson says it can be "summarised as not a full map of systems, and what is where, and how it has evolved over time."
Evidence will aim to bring out 'truth and facts'
Jackson's witness statement is brought up on the inquiry's screen - one section reads: "The current situation is not one anyone would wish to see."
It adds that the Post Office "has asked me to convey its apologies for [the] current situation".
Jackson says there are two objectives. The first, to give the inquiry the evidence it requires to bring out "the truth and facts". The second, so that the hearings can run on a stable case management basis.
We are hearing about Post Office lawyer's background
Jason Beer KC says he wants to look at Chris Jackson's background and reads out a brief list of positions he has held in his career.
His company Burges Salmon, along with the law firm fieldfisher, was appointed to act for the Post Office in May 2023.
Jackson confirms that he took over as the Post Office's legal representative (RLR) on 1 September of that year.
Discussions will be 'rather dry', lawyer tells inquiry
Counsel to the inquiry, Jason Beer KC, opens the evidence session with general questions about the witness statement supplied by Chris Jackson, the lawyer representing the Post Office.
Jackson first confirms his submission of a 99-page statement.
Beer says three topics will be covered across today's session, with the issues up for discussion likely to be "rather dry", he says.
He adds that disclosure of documents "is the lifeblood of the inquiry".
Beer says 218 issues have been identified and that "fulsome and timely disclosure" is important because "securing testing and challenging evidence relies on getting these materials".
Jackson says he understands fully.
Post Office lawyer sworn in at inquiry
The inquiry session has begun and Chris Jackson, partner at Burges Salmon and the lawyer representing the Post Office, is being sworn in.
The inquiry will now begin hearing his evidence.
Remember, you can watch along live by clicking Play at the top of this page and we'll bring you text updates here.
Why is the Post Office scandal back in the news?
The ITV series ‘Mr Bates Vs The Post Office’ has thrust the Post Office scandal into the national consciousness.
The show came out on New Year’s Day and follows the real story of postmaster Alan Bates and the legal battle he led and won against the Post Office.
Since the series aired on 1 January, more than 100 other potential victims have contacted their lawyers, claiming they were wrongly prosecuted by the institution.
The government announced plans to clear the names of hundreds of people wrongly convicted in the scandal.
A timeline of the Post Office scandal
'I've lost my business, my savings, my reputation - everything'
BBC Radio 4's Today programme spoke yesterday to former sub-postmistress Sarah Burgess-Boyde, who lost her life savings when she had to repay an incorrect shortfall in her branch takings.
In an emotional interview, she said she now doesn't have a penny to her name and, at 60, is not future-proofed.
"I've lost my business, all my savings. I've lost my reputation I've lost everything," she said, through tears.
She said an upfront compensation payment of £75,000 that the government is offering is not enough - and she should be entitled to enough to allow her to live her life had she not been forced into this position by the Post Office.
"I've had 15 years of living hand-to-mouth and I had a thriving business - and it's all gone," she added.
Asked about the public inquiry, Burgess-Boyde said she has doubts that it's going deep enough and asking the right questions of the right people.
Of the Post Office, she said: "They seem to be absolutely incapable of just saying we got it really wrong and we're going to put it right - they don't seem to know or care what they've done to hundreds of people".
How to watch the inquiry
The Post Office inquiry is just about to get started.
We're expecting to hear first from Chris Jackson, a partner at the law firm Burges Salmon which represents the Post Office.
You can watch all the latest from Aldwych House by pressing Play at the top of the page.
Nadhim Zahawi was paid £750 for ITV drama cameo
Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi was paid £750 for his appearance in the ITV drama about the Post Office IT scandal, parliament records show.
In the drama, Zahawi plays himself questioning then-Post Office chief executive Paula Vennells in a 2015 Commons committee inquiry into the Horizon computer system.
Last week, Zahawi told the BBC he agreed to a "cameo" appearance in Mr Bates vs The Post Office "for free and for any fees to be donated to charity".
The parliament records dated to September 2023 show a payment for his appearance on a drama and the fee was paid direct to charity.
How will the compensation work?
Sean Seddon
Journalist
The government has announced plans to overturn the convictions of more than 900 people linked to the Post Office scandal.
More than 4,000 people in total have been told they are eligible for compensation.
The three main schemes are aimed at groups of victims who had different experiences of the scandal.
The Group Litigation Order (GLO) scheme was set up to ensure they received extra money to reflect the gravity of their situations.
The Overturned Convictions scheme is set for those whose convictions are overturned and they can choose to take a fast-tracked £600,000 settlement, or can enter into negotiations if they feel they are entitled to more.
The Horizon Shortfall Scheme is intended for those sub-postmasters who weren't convicted or part of the GLO court action. It is administered by the Post Office.
Ex-postmaster says hundreds may have repaid losses
The BBC has been hearing the stories of ex-postmasters and postmistresses and how the Horizon IT scandal affected their personal and working lives. Bob Child is one of them.
The 79-year-old ran a post office in Melbourn, Cambridgeshire, and said he personally repaid £600 when the books would not balance 20 years ago.
He remembered getting calls from other sub-postmasters who were worried about the same financial issues.
He said at the time he had not made the link to the introduction of the Horizon IT system.
"When we did the books with a pen and paper, you'd occasionally be a few pounds over or under, but nothing much," he said.
"In about 2002, a few years after Horizon was introduced, we had a shortfall of £600. I couldn't understand and repaid it with my own money."
What is the Post Office inquiry?
The Post Office inquiry is an independent public statutory inquiry. It began in February 2021 with the aim of gathering a clear account of the failings of the Horizon IT system.
The faulty software was supplied to the Post Office by Fujitsu and introduced in 1999.
It was used for tasks like accounting and stocktaking. Within a year, sub-postmasters complained about bugs in the system after it falsely reported shortfalls - often for many thousands of pounds.
Between 1999 and 2015, the Post Office prosecuted hundreds of sub-postmasters and mistresses after the Horizon system made it look like money was missing. There were more than 900 convictions linked to the scandal over 16 years, with only 93 so far being overturned.
The government has pledged to bring in a new law to "swiftly exonerate and compensate victims" of the scandal.
The aim of the inquiry is to understand what went wrong, and what lessons can be learned.
It will look into how the the Post Office used information from Horizon in the legal cases against sub-postmasters.
Post Office lied and threatened BBC over whistleblower
It has emerged that the Post Office threatened and lied to the BBC in a failed effort to suppress key evidence that helped clear postmasters in the Horizon scandal.
Senior managers tried to smear postmasters before Panorama broadcast an interview in 2015 with a Fujitsu whistleblower.
Former insider Richard Roll revealed accounts on the Horizon computer system could be secretly altered. The Post Office declined to comment while the public inquiry is ongoing.
The BBC can reveal that in the period leading up to the broadcast of Trouble at the Post Office, the 2015 Panorama programme featuring the whistleblower testimony:
You can read more about that BBC Panorama story here.
Who is the lawyer giving evidence today?
Today we’ll be hearing from Chris Jackson, a partner at Burges Salmon law firm, who has been called as the legal representative of the Post Office.
Jackson’s experience as a lawyer spans from economic and safety regulation to public inquiries and inquests, the law firms website states.
His firm replaced Herbert Smith Freehills as the Post Office’s legal representation in the Horizon IT inquiry last year.
Inquiry chair Sir Wyn Williams ordered today’s inquiry to look into the Post Office’ disclosure of evidence after Herbert Smith Freehills and KPMG revealed process failings relating to its disclosure process.
Williams said there is a need for "close monitoring of the disclosure process" during the remainder of the inquiry.