'Maximalist approach' to Covid restrictions taken - Yousaf
Humza Yousaf says he associated himself with taking a "maximalist approach" to ensure Covid restrictions were abided by.
The first minister says there was a "real need" to ensure that the public stuck to the rules in order to contain the virus, which at the time was spreading rapidly.
He adds that there was also a greater police allocation to help with enforcement of the restrictions.
FM asked why fixed penalty system applied to 16-year-olds
The questioning returns to the enforcement of the Covid-19 fixed penalty system during the pandemic in Scotland.
The first minister tells the inquiry the government made a change to raise the age limit to 18 but the inquiry counsel asks why the age was set at 16 at the start.
Humza Yousaf explains the balance had to be struck reflecting human rights.
Post update
The inquiry took a short break due to a technical glitch but it's back up and running. Stick with us for the remainder of Humza Yousaf's evidence.
Analysis
Divergence between UK nations is a theme of interest
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
There's no love lost between the Secretary
of State for Scotland and Scottish government ministers.
Alister Jack has made himself unpopular with
the SNP, with the two sides ending up in court over issues like whether the
Scottish parliament could hold an independence referendum and gender
recognition reform.
The inquiry has questioned whether Jack
should have played a more prominent role in intergovernmental relations. He'll
be able to answer for himself when he gives evidence next week. But Humza
Yousaf said he was curious as to why Jack was at meetings when he had
nothing to contribute.
The first minister expressed frustration
about the lack of collaboration between the two governments over international
travel bans.
In practical terms, if Scotland put a country on a red or orange
list, but England didn't, people could simply get round it by flying into
London and then traveling north of the border, which was detrimental to
both public health and the economy.
The divergence between the nations of
the UK is a theme of interest to the inquiry.
Why did Scotland bring in fixed penalty notices?
Dawson asks why the Scottish government decided to use fixed penalty notices to enforce the Covid regulations.
Yousaf says his recollection was that a recorded warning would not have same impact or understanding with the public.
He says a fixed penalty notice was something the public could understand.
Yousaf says there had to be a deterrent but in the vast majority of cases police enforcement was not required. However, he says enforcement was available as a last resort.
Yousaf says he was 'deeply frustrated' with UK government
Humza Yousaf says collaboration with the UK government was "frustrating at times".
The first minister says he had a good working relationship but there were occasions, related to international travel, when he was "deeply frustrated".
The first minister cites information being given at the last minute from Downing Street or finding out about a decision through an announcement.
Travel risk levels brought complexities - Yousaf
The inquiry's counsel and Yousaf seem to agree that borders and immigration during the pandemic were complex matters.
Remember that during the pandemic, countries were placed on green, amber and red lists, reflecting travel restrictions.
Yousaf highlights the difficulties faced in countries being allocated different risk-levels by the Scottish government and the UK government.
He says if Scotland chose to put a country on the UK government's green list on an amber or red list, "people may well arrive at a port in England and come up to Scotland", putting Scotland at a disadvantage, he says.
Decisions on pandemic travel restrictions put to Yousaf
UK Covid InquiryCopyright: UK Covid Inquiry
Lead counsel to the inquiry Jamie Dawson KC is questioning Humza YousafImage caption: Lead counsel to the inquiry Jamie Dawson KC is questioning Humza Yousaf
Moving on to travel restrictions, Dawson asks what role the UK government's Secretary of State for Scotland, Alister Jack, had with regards to cross-border travel.
Yousaf says on four-nation calls Jack's involvement was "very limited" and "often in meetings Jack would not say anything at all".
"It seemed like he was on the call more to observe than contribute," Yousaf says.
Analysis
Questions over whether cabinet rubber-stamped decisions
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
The line of questioning about cabinet
decision making has been one the inquiry has returned to again and again.
The counsel to the inquiry Jamie Dawson KC
seems to be trying to establish whether the cabinet was essentially there to
rubber-stamp decisions made by the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and "Gold Command", a more select group of ministers.
The current FM Humza Yousaf doesn't agree
with the interpretation that cabinet was only a decision ratifying body but
does acknowledge that gold command meetings should have been minuted.
The
message from the National Clinical Director Jason Leitch about Nicola
Sturgeon's "keep it small shenanigans" suggests he was of the view
that the then first minister didn't want too many people at decision making
meetings.
Tellingly when Humza Yousaf took over as first minister last year, his team let it be known that he was happy to
delegate and let his new team of ministers get on with managing their own
portfolios.
Will public trust be broken over missing messages?
Jamie Dawson KC asks if the bond of trust with the public will be broken if important discussions can't be found on the public record.
The first minister again says "there was no way every single word could be recorded - that was one of the reasons for daily briefings so more information could be given out".
Discovery of messages was fortuitous - inquiry counsel
Lead Counsel to the Inquiry Jamie Dawson KC describes Yousaf's discovery of the messages as "fortuitous".
Dawson goes on to day the messages the first minister released to the inquiry show he was in regular communication with Nicola Sturgeon.
Last week we heard that all of Sturgeon's WhatsApp messages during the pandemic appear to have been deleted.
Yousaf is asked whether he discussed producing these messages with Sturgeon ahead of time.
"No," he says.
Yousaf used personal phone for government messaging
Yousaf says he used personal phones rather than a government device for WhatsApp messages during the pandemic.
The inquiry is shown a document from October 2023 that details how key people like Sturgeon and Yousaf used informal communications during the pandemic.
In the document, Yousaf's entry says all messages were deleted "after a month for cyber security purposes".
But Yousaf realised some messages were recoverable as he had retained a previous phone handset.
The first minister migrated his WhatsApp to his new handset and there were no messages available but by logging out of the WhatsApp account on the new handset and logging in again on the old handset, the messages were recoverable relatively easily.
As a result, many of the messages he sent around that time have been passed to the inquiry.
Ministers can't possibly keep all information - Yousaf
Yousaf says there is "clearly a gap" in the government record keeping policy relating to how informal communications, like WhatsApp messages, should be retained.
He explains ministers cannot possibly keep every piece of information - that's why there is a recorded material policy and why salient information should be recorded in public record, he says.
The first minister says any salient decisions were recorded in the appropriate channels on the corporate record.
Analysis
Government's use of WhatsApp dominates questioning
David Wallace Lockhart
Political correspondent
Perhaps unsurprisingly, one issue dominated First Minister’s Questions this week at Holyrood.
Humza Yousaf was pressed by opposition parties on the government’s use of WhatsApp to conduct business.
He used one of his answers in the chamber to announce an externally-led review into use of mobile messaging apps and other "non corporate technology", conceding that there are "challenges" in relation to how WhatsApp is used in government.
We’ve heard a number of ministers and officials who’ve deleted messages insist that they always followed Scottish government guidelines in this area.
The existing mobile messaging guidelines are complex, but did permit the deletion of messages provided that important information had been saved centrally before this happened.
But this looming review may be our first indication that Yousaf has decided that these guidelines aren’t robust enough, and that something has to change when it comes to using WhatsApp for government business.
'There is no excuse. We should have done better' - Yousaf
Humza Yousaf offers an unreserved apology to both the inquiry and those who lost loved ones for the Scottish government's handling of inquiry requests for all informal messages.
"There is no excuse for it. We should have done better," he says.
FM agrees every message should be handed over in full
Humza Yousaf says his position remains that any messages from the pandemic should be handed over in full to the inquiry.
He conceded the handling of requests for WhatsApp messages had not been the government's "finest hour".
WhatsApps discuss Sturgeon's pandemic decision making
We're now looking at WhatsApp messages between Yousaf and Scotland's national clinical director Prof Jason Leitch shortly after Yousaf was appointed cabinet secretary for health and social care in 2021.
In the excerpt, we see Yousaf tell Leitch he was going to take a "deep dive" into concerns over rising Covid cases in Glasgow.
Leitch responds: "Good. There was some FM 'keep it small' shenanigans as always. She actually wants none of us."
The inquiry counsel asks: "Does this point towards the former first minister preferring to make decisions on her own?"
Yousaf replies that it's a "classic example" of Leitch, by his own admission to the inquiry, "over speaking".
Post update
Lead Counsel to the Inquiry Jamie Dawson KC asks if cabinet was a decision ratification body rather than a decision making body.
Humza Yousaf says: "No, cabinet was a discursive forum and that at times there were disagreements."
Yousaf stresses 'these were not normal times'
UK Covid InquiryCopyright: UK Covid Inquiry
Humza Yousaf tells the inquiry that the Scottish government was not in normal times during the pandemic, so more decisions were delegated to the former first minister.
Yousaf explains the cabinet recently approved the delegation of decisions about the budget to himself and the finance secretary.
He reiterates that these were not normal times, which led to more delegation.
Sturgeon had the authority to decide exact numbers - Yousaf
More now on the authority the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who Yousaf says had to make some decisions without specific cabinet approval.
By way of example, Yousaf says cabinet may have agreed there would need to be limits on the number of people gathering indoors during the pandemic, but Sturgeon would have the authority to decide the exact number.
"It would be very rare for the former first minister to make a decision without either that delegated authority or without informing cabinet the decision was made before it was announced," he says.
Live Reporting
Edited by Paul McLaren and Emily McGarvey
All times stated are UK
'Maximalist approach' to Covid restrictions taken - Yousaf
Humza Yousaf says he associated himself with taking a "maximalist approach" to ensure Covid restrictions were abided by.
The first minister says there was a "real need" to ensure that the public stuck to the rules in order to contain the virus, which at the time was spreading rapidly.
He adds that there was also a greater police allocation to help with enforcement of the restrictions.
FM asked why fixed penalty system applied to 16-year-olds
The questioning returns to the enforcement of the Covid-19 fixed penalty system during the pandemic in Scotland.
The first minister tells the inquiry the government made a change to raise the age limit to 18 but the inquiry counsel asks why the age was set at 16 at the start.
Humza Yousaf explains the balance had to be struck reflecting human rights.
Post update
The inquiry took a short break due to a technical glitch but it's back up and running. Stick with us for the remainder of Humza Yousaf's evidence.
Divergence between UK nations is a theme of interest
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
There's no love lost between the Secretary of State for Scotland and Scottish government ministers.
Alister Jack has made himself unpopular with the SNP, with the two sides ending up in court over issues like whether the Scottish parliament could hold an independence referendum and gender recognition reform.
The inquiry has questioned whether Jack should have played a more prominent role in intergovernmental relations. He'll be able to answer for himself when he gives evidence next week. But Humza Yousaf said he was curious as to why Jack was at meetings when he had nothing to contribute.
The first minister expressed frustration about the lack of collaboration between the two governments over international travel bans.
In practical terms, if Scotland put a country on a red or orange list, but England didn't, people could simply get round it by flying into London and then traveling north of the border, which was detrimental to both public health and the economy.
The divergence between the nations of the UK is a theme of interest to the inquiry.
Why did Scotland bring in fixed penalty notices?
Dawson asks why the Scottish government decided to use fixed penalty notices to enforce the Covid regulations.
Yousaf says his recollection was that a recorded warning would not have same impact or understanding with the public.
He says a fixed penalty notice was something the public could understand.
Yousaf says there had to be a deterrent but in the vast majority of cases police enforcement was not required. However, he says enforcement was available as a last resort.
Yousaf says he was 'deeply frustrated' with UK government
Humza Yousaf says collaboration with the UK government was "frustrating at times".
The first minister says he had a good working relationship but there were occasions, related to international travel, when he was "deeply frustrated".
The first minister cites information being given at the last minute from Downing Street or finding out about a decision through an announcement.
Travel risk levels brought complexities - Yousaf
The inquiry's counsel and Yousaf seem to agree that borders and immigration during the pandemic were complex matters.
Remember that during the pandemic, countries were placed on green, amber and red lists, reflecting travel restrictions.
Yousaf highlights the difficulties faced in countries being allocated different risk-levels by the Scottish government and the UK government.
He says if Scotland chose to put a country on the UK government's green list on an amber or red list, "people may well arrive at a port in England and come up to Scotland", putting Scotland at a disadvantage, he says.
Decisions on pandemic travel restrictions put to Yousaf
Moving on to travel restrictions, Dawson asks what role the UK government's Secretary of State for Scotland, Alister Jack, had with regards to cross-border travel.
Yousaf says on four-nation calls Jack's involvement was "very limited" and "often in meetings Jack would not say anything at all".
"It seemed like he was on the call more to observe than contribute," Yousaf says.
Questions over whether cabinet rubber-stamped decisions
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
The line of questioning about cabinet decision making has been one the inquiry has returned to again and again.
The counsel to the inquiry Jamie Dawson KC seems to be trying to establish whether the cabinet was essentially there to rubber-stamp decisions made by the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon and "Gold Command", a more select group of ministers.
The current FM Humza Yousaf doesn't agree with the interpretation that cabinet was only a decision ratifying body but does acknowledge that gold command meetings should have been minuted.
The message from the National Clinical Director Jason Leitch about Nicola Sturgeon's "keep it small shenanigans" suggests he was of the view that the then first minister didn't want too many people at decision making meetings.
Tellingly when Humza Yousaf took over as first minister last year, his team let it be known that he was happy to delegate and let his new team of ministers get on with managing their own portfolios.
Will public trust be broken over missing messages?
Jamie Dawson KC asks if the bond of trust with the public will be broken if important discussions can't be found on the public record.
The first minister again says "there was no way every single word could be recorded - that was one of the reasons for daily briefings so more information could be given out".
Discovery of messages was fortuitous - inquiry counsel
Lead Counsel to the Inquiry Jamie Dawson KC describes Yousaf's discovery of the messages as "fortuitous".
Dawson goes on to day the messages the first minister released to the inquiry show he was in regular communication with Nicola Sturgeon.
Last week we heard that all of Sturgeon's WhatsApp messages during the pandemic appear to have been deleted.
Yousaf is asked whether he discussed producing these messages with Sturgeon ahead of time.
"No," he says.
Yousaf used personal phone for government messaging
Yousaf says he used personal phones rather than a government device for WhatsApp messages during the pandemic.
The inquiry is shown a document from October 2023 that details how key people like Sturgeon and Yousaf used informal communications during the pandemic.
In the document, Yousaf's entry says all messages were deleted "after a month for cyber security purposes".
But Yousaf realised some messages were recoverable as he had retained a previous phone handset.
The first minister migrated his WhatsApp to his new handset and there were no messages available but by logging out of the WhatsApp account on the new handset and logging in again on the old handset, the messages were recoverable relatively easily.
As a result, many of the messages he sent around that time have been passed to the inquiry.
Ministers can't possibly keep all information - Yousaf
Yousaf says there is "clearly a gap" in the government record keeping policy relating to how informal communications, like WhatsApp messages, should be retained.
He explains ministers cannot possibly keep every piece of information - that's why there is a recorded material policy and why salient information should be recorded in public record, he says.
The first minister says any salient decisions were recorded in the appropriate channels on the corporate record.
Government's use of WhatsApp dominates questioning
David Wallace Lockhart
Political correspondent
Perhaps unsurprisingly, one issue dominated First Minister’s Questions this week at Holyrood.
Humza Yousaf was pressed by opposition parties on the government’s use of WhatsApp to conduct business.
He used one of his answers in the chamber to announce an externally-led review into use of mobile messaging apps and other "non corporate technology", conceding that there are "challenges" in relation to how WhatsApp is used in government.
We’ve heard a number of ministers and officials who’ve deleted messages insist that they always followed Scottish government guidelines in this area.
The existing mobile messaging guidelines are complex, but did permit the deletion of messages provided that important information had been saved centrally before this happened.
But this looming review may be our first indication that Yousaf has decided that these guidelines aren’t robust enough, and that something has to change when it comes to using WhatsApp for government business.
'There is no excuse. We should have done better' - Yousaf
Humza Yousaf offers an unreserved apology to both the inquiry and those who lost loved ones for the Scottish government's handling of inquiry requests for all informal messages.
"There is no excuse for it. We should have done better," he says.
FM agrees every message should be handed over in full
Humza Yousaf says his position remains that any messages from the pandemic should be handed over in full to the inquiry.
Earlier today, Yousaf announced an externally-led review into the Scottish government's use of mobile messaging apps.
He conceded the handling of requests for WhatsApp messages had not been the government's "finest hour".
WhatsApps discuss Sturgeon's pandemic decision making
We're now looking at WhatsApp messages between Yousaf and Scotland's national clinical director Prof Jason Leitch shortly after Yousaf was appointed cabinet secretary for health and social care in 2021.
In the excerpt, we see Yousaf tell Leitch he was going to take a "deep dive" into concerns over rising Covid cases in Glasgow.
Leitch responds: "Good. There was some FM 'keep it small' shenanigans as always. She actually wants none of us."
The inquiry counsel asks: "Does this point towards the former first minister preferring to make decisions on her own?"
Yousaf replies that it's a "classic example" of Leitch, by his own admission to the inquiry, "over speaking".
Post update
Lead Counsel to the Inquiry Jamie Dawson KC asks if cabinet was a decision ratification body rather than a decision making body.
Humza Yousaf says: "No, cabinet was a discursive forum and that at times there were disagreements."
Yousaf stresses 'these were not normal times'
Humza Yousaf tells the inquiry that the Scottish government was not in normal times during the pandemic, so more decisions were delegated to the former first minister.
Yousaf explains the cabinet recently approved the delegation of decisions about the budget to himself and the finance secretary.
He reiterates that these were not normal times, which led to more delegation.
Sturgeon had the authority to decide exact numbers - Yousaf
More now on the authority the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, who Yousaf says had to make some decisions without specific cabinet approval.
By way of example, Yousaf says cabinet may have agreed there would need to be limits on the number of people gathering indoors during the pandemic, but Sturgeon would have the authority to decide the exact number.
"It would be very rare for the former first minister to make a decision without either that delegated authority or without informing cabinet the decision was made before it was announced," he says.