Sturgeon did not 'cascade' decisions to cabinet - Yousaf
Humza Yousaf tells the inquiry that Nicola Sturgeon made decisions during the pandemic which were not "cascaded" to the rest of the cabinet.
He says Sturgeon and the "gold command" of top advisers were making decisions in a fast-paced environment and these were not always shared with other ministers.
He adds that this presented challenges when ministers had to explain the rationale behind the decisions.
Yousaf emphasises that this was a "rare" occurrence and most decisions were made by the cabinet, he adds.
Scotland's first minister gives evidence
UK Covid InquiryCopyright: UK Covid Inquiry
First Minister Humza Yousaf is sworn in and lead counsel Jamie Dawson KC introduces him and runs through the two statements he has given the inquiry.
The first minister says he has signed both statements and they remain true.
He clarifies that he held two cabinet secretary roles during the pandemic - justice and then health.
Dawson points out he was officially health and social care secretary.
Humza Yousaf arrives at Covid inquiry
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
Scotland's First Minister Humza Yousaf has arrived at today's Covid inquiry hearing at the Edinburgh International Conference Centre.
He's expected to begin giving evidence at 13:45 GMT.
You can watch live with us by pressing Play at the top of the page and we'll bring you text updates and analysis here.
Analysis
Liz Lloyd robust in defence of provoking political spat
James Cook
Scotland Editor, BBC News
The inquiry heard that Liz Lloyd was one of Nicola Sturgeon's closest confidants, routinely at the former first minister's side during the pandemic.
That tight relationship was reflected in the informality of the messages exchanged between the pair.
It was also reflected in Sturgeon's occasionally blunt language, particularly in the adjective she used in describing Boris Johnson as a clown.
Her low opinion of him hardly comes as a surprise. Nor does the fact that the Scottish and UK governments often disagreed.
Lloyd was robust in her defence of a decision to provoke a political spat (although she used the word "rammy") with the UK government, insisting that the sole motivation had been to force the Treasury to provide financial support for necessary public health interventions in Scotland after private discussions had failed.
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
Liz Lloyd, former chief of staff to Nicola Sturgeon, gave evidence this morningImage caption: Liz Lloyd, former chief of staff to Nicola Sturgeon, gave evidence this morning
She also denied that the SNP had tried to politicise the pandemic to advance the cause of independence, an issue on which she faced repeated questioning.
Lloyd was on shakier ground when it came to disclosure of private messages. She had lost her WhatsApps from the start of the pandemic until September 2020, she said, and didn't know whether she had "actively" deleted them.
At the same time, in what was obviously not a coincidence, Humza Yousaf was announcing an external review into the use of mobile messaging apps in government.
He will give evidence this afternoon while his predecessor now has a detailed flavour of what she can expect when facing the inquiry next week.
A tale of two very different Covid inquiries
As well
as the UK Covid Inquiry, which is now visiting Edinburgh, there is a Scottish
Covid Inquiry under way - which is taking a very different approach.
The UK Covid-19 Inquiry began last August and has already heard from
a number of people involved in Scotland's response to the pandemic - including
the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.
But its scope is much broader as it covers the
impact of the pandemic and decisions taken by the UK government for the whole
of the UK.
The Scottish inquiry is only investigating policy
areas under the control of the Scottish government.
The UK and Scottish inquiries have agreed, where
possible, not to sit at the same time when they are considering material which
is relevant to both, to try and cut down on any confusion for the public.
Scotland's First Minister has announced an externally-led review into the Scottish government's use of mobile messaging apps like WhatsApps and other "non corporate technology", conceding that there are "challenges" in relation to how the app is used in government.
At First Minister's Questions this afternoon, Humza Yousaf was pressed by opposition leaders on the deletion of WhatsApps by senior government ministers and officials during the pandemic.
Yousaf conceded that the Scottish government's handling of requests for WhatsApp messages hadn't been their "finest hour" and had not given bereaved families confidence.
He repeated an "unreserved apology" to them.
The FM stressed that the Scottish government had eventually handed over 28,000 messages, and that the app was not routinely used for decision making.
What happened at the inquiry this morning?
If you're just joining us, here are the headlines from this morning's evidence session with the former chief of staff to Nicola Sturgeon when she was first minister, Liz Lloyd:
Expletive-laden WhatsApp messages written by Sturgeon reveal that she saw Boris Johnson as utterly incompetent and a "[expletive] clown"
Lloyd said UK government communications were "quite shambolic" and relations between the two governments were strained
She said she was "up for a good old-fashioned rammy" with the UK government
Lloyd called a Cobra meeting a "shambles" in her notebook. She says she advised but it was Sturgeon who made the decisions
The former chief of staff insisted "the science underpinned everything". She also told the inquiry independence was not generally discussed during the Covid pandemic
Sturgeon devoted "vast amounts of time to the pandemic", Lloyd said
Analysis
Was there politicisation of the virus?
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
Baroness Hallett asked whether the
Scottish Cabinet was seeking to capitalise on the pandemic to advance the
cause of independence.
It's a common criticism from pro-union
parties.
When the pandemic hit, work on independence
was stopped and civil servants redeployed. The cabinet minutes from July 2020
that the inquiry has focused on, suggest that consideration should be given to
restarting work on a second independence referendum, with arguments reflecting
the experience of the coronavirus crisis and developments on EU Exit.
Liz
Lloyd was at pains to stress that while consideration may have been given, no
actual work took place.
But it is true that independence supporters have
used both Brexit, (which Scotland did not vote for) and Covid, to
demonstrate where Scotland would have made different decisions.
They've
contrasted Nicola Sturgeon's assured and capable performance during the
pandemic with the "chaotic and shambolic" performance of Number 10.
And they've highlighted some of the difficulties that not having control of the
economic levers, for example when it comes to furlough, meant for public health
decision-making. Whether this amounts to politicisation of the virus, and
whether that's a positive or a negative, will depend on your view.
Humza Yousaf will face the Covid Inquiry this afternoon
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
The UK Covid inquiry has broken for lunch and will return at 13:45 GMT when Humza Yousaf will give evidence.
During the pandemic the first minister served in two key roles – justice secretary until May 2021 and latterly as health secretary.
This is the first time he will appear in front of the inquiry but some of his evidence has already been discussed.
WhatsApp exchanges between the pair in November 2021 showed Prof Leitch told the then health secretary to keep a drink in his hands at all times to remain "exempt" from mask rules at a dinner.
The first minister's spokesperson said Yousaf had sought "clarity” but denied he was not on top of the rules as a government minister during the pandemic.
Relationships with stakeholders deteriorated, says Lloyd
Claire Mitchell, representing the Scottish Covid Bereaved, is up. She points to a section of Lloyd's evidence that says communication with stakeholders could at times have been improved.
Lloyd says reports she received and her own observations reflected that economic officials were good at listening to the concerns of stakeholders regarding restrictions - but didn't make the argument to why they were being introduced or extended.
She says it meant clinicians were at times left being the "bad guys" explaining, for example, why the pub couldn't be opened this weekend.
It was a "difficult balance to strike" between saving lives and impacting livelihoods, she says.
Lloyd says the relationship with economic stakeholders was not great going into pandemic and deteriorated through it.
Did Scotland capitalise on pandemic to support independence?
Inquiry chair Baroness Hallett asks Lloyd to revisit the cabinet meeting where Brexit and Scottish independence were raised.
In this cabinet meeting, it was agreed that consideration should be given to restarting work on independence and a referendum.
Cabinet papers note that consideration should be given to "arguments reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis and developments on EU exit".
Hallett asks Lloyd whether it looks like some cabinet members agreed to capitalise on the pandemic to advance the cause of independence.
Lloyd reiterates that no work to sell independence to the public was done at this point in time.
Post update
Liz Lloyd says she has more faith in the public that they are able to differentiate what is political from what is medical or clinical.
She says she thinks the public knew the difference and it did not have an impact on trust.
Advisers took on duties they were not used to, says Lloyd
We turn now to the role of independent advisers who became very public figures during the pandemic.
Liz Lloyd says it was, and is, clear where the line between politics and scientific advice lies.
National Clinical Director Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Gregor Smith took on a communications duty they were not used to, Lloyd says, "and they made themselves incredibly available to all forms of media".
She adds that their enthusiasm to give the public answers meant they sometimes accidentally overstepped the line.
Sturgeon only had one phone, says Lloyd
Liz Lloyd says she believes Nicola Sturgeon only had one phone and doesn't know if it was issued by the Scottish government or whether it was a personal phone.
Lloyd adds that she knows the government adds a secure app to ministers' personal phones.
"I would be less concerned with the device and more concerned with the security," she adds.
Lloyd did 'everything' to recover missing messages
UK Covid InquiryCopyright: UK Covid Inquiry
Usman Tariq asks if it is fair to assume Liz Lloyd was messaging Nicola Sturgeon about the pandemic before 1 September 2020, referencing messages Lloyd had not retained from that period.
"I regret not being able to give those messages to the inquiry," replies Lloyd, adding that she has "done everything" to find them.
Lloyd says that during that intense period the majority of discussions were happening in person and a lot of the messages were logistical.
She says she is not the best administrator of devices and she has used every online tool to extract information from WhatsApp.
Lloyd pressed on how messages with Sturgeon were recorded
Given that some of the context for decision making is contained within WhatsApp messages, was it a habit to make a formal record, such as email, of these messages Tariq asks.
Lloyd responds that largely, yes.
She says she wouldn't write an email saying, "I have had a WhatsApp exchange with Nicola Sturgeon", but more "I have been in discussion with her".
She says her processes for recording WhatsApp messages were reflective of how she would record conversations pre-Covid, which is to communicate it on to an official.
Using the earlier example of WhatsApp messages discussing wedding attendee limits, Lloyd says she would have sent a Teams message to the relevant official, relaying that Sturgeon was asking her questions and requesting further information.
Lloyd 'not familiar' with WhatsApp policy
The inquiry continues examining the policy for WhatsApp messages.
She says: "To the best of my recollection, I was not familiar with the mobile messaging policy."
She does not know whether Nicola Sturgeon was familiar with that policy.
She says she asked the Scottish government to pass the messages to Sturgeon and that she cannot speak for Sturgeon.
Lloyd says all the relevant salient information is in the system in other forms and she says she kept messages for reference.
'Inaccurate' to say government covered up information - Lloyd
Liz Lloyd accepts that saying an un-named man died under NHS Lothian care "may have" given the impression that the patient was Scottish.
Tariq puts it to Lloyd that the decision to not disclose the circumstances around the first Covid death could be interpreted as protecting the Scottish government from uncomfortable questions for allowing the rugby match to proceed in the first place.
"That was not the reason for not disclosing the information that the man was French," Lloyd replies.
Could the lack of information be interpreted as an example of the government covering up uncomfortable information during the early months of the pandemic, Tariq asks.
"That would be an in accurate way of looking at it," Lloyd says.
Lloyd asked about first recorded Covid death in Scotland
The inquiry is back and junior counsel to the inquiry Usman Tariq brings up the first death with Covid in Scotland which was announced on 13 March 2020.
The man who died was a French national who had travelled to Edinburgh for a rugby international. Lloyd is asked why the details of the death were not publicised.
She explains the Scottish government did publicise the first death had occurred with an underlying condition, but not that the man was a French national.
She says they were told not to release the fact he was French and had attended the rugby in Edinburgh.
Live Reporting
Edited by Paul McLaren and Emily McGarvey
All times stated are UK
Sturgeon did not 'cascade' decisions to cabinet - Yousaf
Humza Yousaf tells the inquiry that Nicola Sturgeon made decisions during the pandemic which were not "cascaded" to the rest of the cabinet.
He says Sturgeon and the "gold command" of top advisers were making decisions in a fast-paced environment and these were not always shared with other ministers.
He adds that this presented challenges when ministers had to explain the rationale behind the decisions.
Yousaf emphasises that this was a "rare" occurrence and most decisions were made by the cabinet, he adds.
Scotland's first minister gives evidence
First Minister Humza Yousaf is sworn in and lead counsel Jamie Dawson KC introduces him and runs through the two statements he has given the inquiry.
The first minister says he has signed both statements and they remain true.
He clarifies that he held two cabinet secretary roles during the pandemic - justice and then health.
Dawson points out he was officially health and social care secretary.
Humza Yousaf arrives at Covid inquiry
Scotland's First Minister Humza Yousaf has arrived at today's Covid inquiry hearing at the Edinburgh International Conference Centre.
He's expected to begin giving evidence at 13:45 GMT.
You can watch live with us by pressing Play at the top of the page and we'll bring you text updates and analysis here.
Liz Lloyd robust in defence of provoking political spat
James Cook
Scotland Editor, BBC News
The inquiry heard that Liz Lloyd was one of Nicola Sturgeon's closest confidants, routinely at the former first minister's side during the pandemic.
That tight relationship was reflected in the informality of the messages exchanged between the pair.
It was also reflected in Sturgeon's occasionally blunt language, particularly in the adjective she used in describing Boris Johnson as a clown.
Her low opinion of him hardly comes as a surprise. Nor does the fact that the Scottish and UK governments often disagreed.
Lloyd was robust in her defence of a decision to provoke a political spat (although she used the word "rammy") with the UK government, insisting that the sole motivation had been to force the Treasury to provide financial support for necessary public health interventions in Scotland after private discussions had failed.
She also denied that the SNP had tried to politicise the pandemic to advance the cause of independence, an issue on which she faced repeated questioning.
Lloyd was on shakier ground when it came to disclosure of private messages. She had lost her WhatsApps from the start of the pandemic until September 2020, she said, and didn't know whether she had "actively" deleted them.
At the same time, in what was obviously not a coincidence, Humza Yousaf was announcing an external review into the use of mobile messaging apps in government.
He will give evidence this afternoon while his predecessor now has a detailed flavour of what she can expect when facing the inquiry next week.
A tale of two very different Covid inquiries
As well as the UK Covid Inquiry, which is now visiting Edinburgh, there is a Scottish Covid Inquiry under way - which is taking a very different approach.
The UK Covid-19 Inquiry began last August and has already heard from a number of people involved in Scotland's response to the pandemic - including the former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon.
But its scope is much broader as it covers the impact of the pandemic and decisions taken by the UK government for the whole of the UK.
The Scottish inquiry is only investigating policy areas under the control of the Scottish government.
The UK and Scottish inquiries have agreed, where possible, not to sit at the same time when they are considering material which is relevant to both, to try and cut down on any confusion for the public.
Humza Yousaf announces WhatsApp review
David Wallace Lockhart
Political correspondent
Scotland's First Minister has announced an externally-led review into the Scottish government's use of mobile messaging apps like WhatsApps and other "non corporate technology", conceding that there are "challenges" in relation to how the app is used in government.
At First Minister's Questions this afternoon, Humza Yousaf was pressed by opposition leaders on the deletion of WhatsApps by senior government ministers and officials during the pandemic.
Yousaf conceded that the Scottish government's handling of requests for WhatsApp messages hadn't been their "finest hour" and had not given bereaved families confidence.
He repeated an "unreserved apology" to them.
The FM stressed that the Scottish government had eventually handed over 28,000 messages, and that the app was not routinely used for decision making.
What happened at the inquiry this morning?
If you're just joining us, here are the headlines from this morning's evidence session with the former chief of staff to Nicola Sturgeon when she was first minister, Liz Lloyd:
Was there politicisation of the virus?
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
Baroness Hallett asked whether the Scottish Cabinet was seeking to capitalise on the pandemic to advance the cause of independence.
It's a common criticism from pro-union parties.
When the pandemic hit, work on independence was stopped and civil servants redeployed. The cabinet minutes from July 2020 that the inquiry has focused on, suggest that consideration should be given to restarting work on a second independence referendum, with arguments reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis and developments on EU Exit.
Liz Lloyd was at pains to stress that while consideration may have been given, no actual work took place.
But it is true that independence supporters have used both Brexit, (which Scotland did not vote for) and Covid, to demonstrate where Scotland would have made different decisions.
They've contrasted Nicola Sturgeon's assured and capable performance during the pandemic with the "chaotic and shambolic" performance of Number 10.
And they've highlighted some of the difficulties that not having control of the economic levers, for example when it comes to furlough, meant for public health decision-making. Whether this amounts to politicisation of the virus, and whether that's a positive or a negative, will depend on your view.
Humza Yousaf will face the Covid Inquiry this afternoon
The UK Covid inquiry has broken for lunch and will return at 13:45 GMT when Humza Yousaf will give evidence.
During the pandemic the first minister served in two key roles – justice secretary until May 2021 and latterly as health secretary.
This is the first time he will appear in front of the inquiry but some of his evidence has already been discussed.
On Tuesday, Scotland’s national clinical director Prof Jason Leitch denied giving Yousaf a “workaround” to avoid having to wear a face mask at a dinner.
WhatsApp exchanges between the pair in November 2021 showed Prof Leitch told the then health secretary to keep a drink in his hands at all times to remain "exempt" from mask rules at a dinner.
The first minister's spokesperson said Yousaf had sought "clarity” but denied he was not on top of the rules as a government minister during the pandemic.
Relationships with stakeholders deteriorated, says Lloyd
Claire Mitchell, representing the Scottish Covid Bereaved, is up. She points to a section of Lloyd's evidence that says communication with stakeholders could at times have been improved.
Lloyd says reports she received and her own observations reflected that economic officials were good at listening to the concerns of stakeholders regarding restrictions - but didn't make the argument to why they were being introduced or extended.
She says it meant clinicians were at times left being the "bad guys" explaining, for example, why the pub couldn't be opened this weekend.
It was a "difficult balance to strike" between saving lives and impacting livelihoods, she says.
Lloyd says the relationship with economic stakeholders was not great going into pandemic and deteriorated through it.
Did Scotland capitalise on pandemic to support independence?
Inquiry chair Baroness Hallett asks Lloyd to revisit the cabinet meeting where Brexit and Scottish independence were raised.
In this cabinet meeting, it was agreed that consideration should be given to restarting work on independence and a referendum.
Cabinet papers note that consideration should be given to "arguments reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis and developments on EU exit".
Hallett asks Lloyd whether it looks like some cabinet members agreed to capitalise on the pandemic to advance the cause of independence.
Lloyd reiterates that no work to sell independence to the public was done at this point in time.
Post update
Liz Lloyd says she has more faith in the public that they are able to differentiate what is political from what is medical or clinical.
She says she thinks the public knew the difference and it did not have an impact on trust.
Advisers took on duties they were not used to, says Lloyd
We turn now to the role of independent advisers who became very public figures during the pandemic.
Liz Lloyd says it was, and is, clear where the line between politics and scientific advice lies.
National Clinical Director Jason Leitch and Chief Medical Officer Gregor Smith took on a communications duty they were not used to, Lloyd says, "and they made themselves incredibly available to all forms of media".
She adds that their enthusiasm to give the public answers meant they sometimes accidentally overstepped the line.
Sturgeon only had one phone, says Lloyd
Liz Lloyd says she believes Nicola Sturgeon only had one phone and doesn't know if it was issued by the Scottish government or whether it was a personal phone.
Lloyd adds that she knows the government adds a secure app to ministers' personal phones.
"I would be less concerned with the device and more concerned with the security," she adds.
Lloyd did 'everything' to recover missing messages
Usman Tariq asks if it is fair to assume Liz Lloyd was messaging Nicola Sturgeon about the pandemic before 1 September 2020, referencing messages Lloyd had not retained from that period.
"I regret not being able to give those messages to the inquiry," replies Lloyd, adding that she has "done everything" to find them.
Lloyd says that during that intense period the majority of discussions were happening in person and a lot of the messages were logistical.
She says she is not the best administrator of devices and she has used every online tool to extract information from WhatsApp.
Lloyd pressed on how messages with Sturgeon were recorded
Given that some of the context for decision making is contained within WhatsApp messages, was it a habit to make a formal record, such as email, of these messages Tariq asks.
Lloyd responds that largely, yes.
She says she wouldn't write an email saying, "I have had a WhatsApp exchange with Nicola Sturgeon", but more "I have been in discussion with her".
She says her processes for recording WhatsApp messages were reflective of how she would record conversations pre-Covid, which is to communicate it on to an official.
Using the earlier example of WhatsApp messages discussing wedding attendee limits, Lloyd says she would have sent a Teams message to the relevant official, relaying that Sturgeon was asking her questions and requesting further information.
Lloyd 'not familiar' with WhatsApp policy
The inquiry continues examining the policy for WhatsApp messages.
She says: "To the best of my recollection, I was not familiar with the mobile messaging policy."
She does not know whether Nicola Sturgeon was familiar with that policy.
The UK Covid Inquiry previously heard the former first minister appeared to "have retained no messages whatsoever" from the pandemic.
Sturgeon has since said messages communicated through "informal means" were handed to the inquiry last year.
Questions return to WhatsApp messages with Sturgeon
Usman Tariq says Liz Lloyd voluntarily provided the first batch of WhatsApp messages with Nicola Sturgeon from September 2020 to march 2021.
Lloyd is asked if she was aware Sturgeon had deleted all the messages from her phone when she submitted her messages to the inquiry.
She says she asked the Scottish government to pass the messages to Sturgeon and that she cannot speak for Sturgeon.
Lloyd says all the relevant salient information is in the system in other forms and she says she kept messages for reference.
'Inaccurate' to say government covered up information - Lloyd
Liz Lloyd accepts that saying an un-named man died under NHS Lothian care "may have" given the impression that the patient was Scottish.
Tariq puts it to Lloyd that the decision to not disclose the circumstances around the first Covid death could be interpreted as protecting the Scottish government from uncomfortable questions for allowing the rugby match to proceed in the first place.
"That was not the reason for not disclosing the information that the man was French," Lloyd replies.
Could the lack of information be interpreted as an example of the government covering up uncomfortable information during the early months of the pandemic, Tariq asks.
"That would be an in accurate way of looking at it," Lloyd says.
Lloyd asked about first recorded Covid death in Scotland
The inquiry is back and junior counsel to the inquiry Usman Tariq brings up the first death with Covid in Scotland which was announced on 13 March 2020.
The man who died was a French national who had travelled to Edinburgh for a rugby international. Lloyd is asked why the details of the death were not publicised.
She explains the Scottish government did publicise the first death had occurred with an underlying condition, but not that the man was a French national.
She says they were told not to release the fact he was French and had attended the rugby in Edinburgh.