Lloyd says she was 'Grinch' over Christmas restrictions
UK Covid InquiryCopyright: UK Covid Inquiry
Just before the break, the inquiry turned to more messages between Lloyd and Sturgeon in which they discuss Covid restrictions over Christmas during the pandemic.
Lloyd writes that she is "increasingly leaning" to allowing socialisation with one other household at Christmas.
She adds: "But I'm also a Grinch about Christmas". Sturgeon responds: "I am too - but on this I (reluctantly) think there's merit in UK-wide position".
Lloyd tells the inquiry that the Scottish government was "essentially bounced by the UK government into a position about Christmas".
"Telling people they can't have it when the UK government has said you can was a very difficult situation to be put in," she adds.
A short break
The inquiry is taking a quick tea break now.
Liz Lloyd will be back in the hot seat at 11:30GMT to continue her evidence, and we will be here bringing you her key lines.
Stick with us.
The Nike conference, Scotland's first recognised outbreak of Covid
BBCCopyright: BBC
We've heard the inquiry talk about Scotland's first recognised outbreak of Covid, which was traced to a Nike conference in Edinburgh, but did not result in community transmission of the virus.
A Public Health Scotland report found a single case among the 71 delegates led to 38 further infections.
It was reported to Health Protection Scotland on 2 March 2020, the day after Scotland's first confirmed case of the virus was announced.
The then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon later hit back at suggestions that the outbreak was covered up and said details were not made public at the time because of patient confidentiality guidelines.
Lloyd in favour of telling public about first Covid outbreak
Usman Tariq says Liz Loyd was in favour of telling the public about a Nike conference in Edinburgh - Scotland's first recognised outbreak of Covid.
The then chief medical officer, Dr Catherine Calderwood gave strong advice not to say anything specific.
Lloyd says she would still have favoured making information available, but Dr Calderwood cited patient confidentiality.
Lloyd explains that is why she asked for advice on what could be said, and the first case of Covid in Scotland had "media on their doorstep".
Tariq asks if this gives the impression of a cover up and Liz Lloyd replies she does not see it that way.
Sturgeon devoted vast amounts of time to pandemic - Lloyd
The inquiry hears that in September 2021, Nicola Sturgeon announced work was restarting on a second referendum on Scottish independence.
Tariq asks Lloyd whether that reflected a change in priority for the first minister away from the pandemic.
Lloyd says at that point, she wasn't there day-to-day, but her recollection is that Sturgeon remained focussed on the pandemic response.
"She devoted vast amounts of time to the pandemic," Lloyd says. "You can think about more than one thing when you're first minister."
Lloyd adds that the cabinet secretary for the constitution largely led the independence discussions.
Analysis
Public spats and poor relationships
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
The language is fruity, but the sense of frustration is
real.
Without funding from the UK Treasury the Scottish government was
unable to impose restrictions on businesses.
The messages reveal that the
former first minister’s chief of staff, Liz Lloyd, was up for “a good
old-fashioned rammy” with the UK government.
The idea seems to be to publicly
shame them into agreeing to provide financial support.
It was a “public spat
for a purpose” and further evidence of the poor relationship between the
politicians of Scotland’s two different governments.
Frustration over who managed Covid rules in Scotland
More WhatsApp messages are shown, in which Lloyd says her advice to set the UK government a timeline on furlough ending is "purely political", describing it as "a good old fashioned rammy".
Lloyd says this is an expression of frustration that "we were not able to manage the pandemic at this point in time the way we wanted".
"There were a lot of things in Covid where we did not have the argument in public," she says, that there were times when the UK government did not do things and "we just let it go".
Johnson 'not informed' during Covid meetings - Lloyd
Liz Lloyd says relations between the Scottish and UK government were strained.
During meetings between Boris Johnson and the heads of the UK's devolved governments, the PM summarised the first ministers' contributions in ways that missed the points they had made, she says.
Lloyd says it felt like Johnson was "reading a script".
"It was difficult. It was more effective at the beginning although it was obvious they were not hugely keen on having us there," she says.
Lloyd adds that it was "actually quite effective" when Dominic Raab was temporarily in charge while Johnson was in hospital with Covid.
When Johnson returned from hospital, it became clear that he was "not informed" and did not want to be in the meetings, she adds.
Lloyd: Independence generally wasn't discussed during Covid
Liz Lloyd says the subject of Scottish independence was raised in a cabinet meeting during the pandemic and it was agreed that consideration should be given to restarting work on independence and a referendum.
Cabinet papers note that consideration should be given to "arguments reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis and developments on EU exit".
Lloyd says Brexit was the focus of the cabinet's discussion that day, and that no action on independence or a referendum was taken until the end of 2020.
Brexit was the dominant constitutional concern of the Scottish government in 2020.
Asked when independence became a subject under discussion again, Lloyd says it generally wasn't discussed during the pandemic.
At the start of the pandemic, the team working on Scottish independence was disbanded and reallocated to work on the government's Covid response.
She adds that nothing really happened until after the 2021 Holyrood election.
WhatsApps show Sturgeon called Johnson a 'clown'
Usman Tariq turns again to the WhatsApp messages and warns there may be some bad language.
He picks up on the messages between Liz Lloyd and Nicola Sturgeon on communications from the UK government when Boris Johnson was prime minister at the time.
Tariq quotes Sturgeon who wrote: "He is a [expletive] clown".
Lloyd, Sturgeon's former chief of staff, says this was the end result of a day that had been "quite shambolic from the UK government".
"We were clearly not very complementary about their communications handling that day," she says.
Tariq asks if the relationship between Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon had broken down.
Lloyd says Johnson "did not want to be on the calls" and "engagement came to be seen as slightly pointless".
UK government didn't grant Scotland funding it wanted - Lloyd
UK Covid InquiryCopyright: UK Covid Inquiry
Usman Tariq is questioning Liz Lloyd this morningImage caption: Usman Tariq is questioning Liz Lloyd this morning
Next, we're looking at some handwritten notes Lloyd scrawled regarding funding from the UK government.
On the page is a note that says: "Political tactics - calling for things we can't do to force UK."
Tariq asks if the strategy of the Scottish government was to create a public spat with the UK government to force their hand.
Lloyd says this is not about a spat, "it's about putting pressure on the UK government".
"It was about weighing up how restrictions could be introduced to break the Covid circuit with minimum economic impact - the UK government did not grant the Scottish government the funding to do what they wanted," she says.
"When private discussions do not get you to the place where you have access to the finances that you need to do that, you have to disclose to the public why you're not doing it.
"I don't call that a spat. Although I wrote political tactic, its not partisan."
A note on strong language in the live feed
Some very strong language is being broadcast on the live feed from the inquiry as messages are read out in evidence.
This is because the counsel to the inquiry has decided that this evidence is pertinent to its aim of examining the UK’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic, and trying to learn lessons for the future.
While the BBC would not normally broadcast such strong language, we believe there is a clear public interest in reporting the inquiry's proceedings in full.
Cabinet sometimes pushed back on Covid proposals - Lloyd
Lloyd says that all the decisions that went before the Scottish government's cabinet were proposals, and not decisions taken by either Nicola Sturgeon or her deputy, John Swinney.
She says if ministers had wanted to push back on any of the proposals there would be genuine discussions. "Cabinet ministers sometimes pushed back, asked for changes or deferred decisions until there was more information available," she says.
Lloyd adds that there was also extensive engagement with cabinet prior to meeting.
When the Scottish government brought in a system which assigned different levels of Covid restrictions to each council area, the final decision on each area was left to the first minister to make, she adds. This was because decisions were taken shortly before levels were announced in order to take into account the most recent data.
Lloyd asked about political strategy behind Covid response
The inquiry's junior counsel Tariq is now turning to what he calls the political strategy behind the Scottish government's Covid-19 response.
He points to some minutes from a government meeting Lloyd was present at from June 2020. In the conclusion, it says consideration should be given to restarting work on an independence referendum reflecting the Covid crisis and developments on the UK exiting the European Union.
"What is the significance of this discussion?" he asks.
Lloyd says there was a discussion on the exit from the EU, but not independence.
She says the fact that something is in the cabinet conclusion doesn't necessarily mean there was an active discussion on that.
If there had been a discussion, "it would have been in my notes - it is not," she says.
Analysis
WhatsApps show self-doubt behind the scenes
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
The former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has always
presented a very confident and assured face in public.
These WhatsApp messages between her and her closest adviser
and self-described “thought-partner” Liz Lloyd indicate that behind the
scenes there was more self-doubt.
Lloyd describes Sturgeon’s
query about whether the number who can attend weddings should change depending
on what the UK government is doing as a “split second of indecision”.
Though Liz
Lloyd has played down the significance of this exchange, the inquiry is
suggesting that without such messages we wouldn’t have such insights.
'The science underpinned everything' - Lloyd
Usman Tariq asks if the science was the be all and end all in decision making on Covid measures.
"The science underpinned everything," replies Liz Lloyd.
Science was dominant, the former chief of staff adds, but other things were taken into account.
Figures on indoor meetings weren't 'pulled out of the air'
UK Covid InquiryCopyright: UK Covid Inquiry
We're now looking at another WhatsApp exchange in which Lloyd and Sturgeon are discussing restrictions on indoor meetings.
In the exchange, Lloyd advises Sturgeon that six people from three households would be much more "normal".
She says she hasn't pulled these figures out of the air, that they came from official proposals.
Lloyd now says: "Sometimes when you looked at the advice that was given, you have to think through what this will mean for people living their lives in practice."
She says she recalls her thinking at that time was that it meant it may be easier for families to gather.
I advised but the decision was Sturgeon's - Lloyd
Sticking with questioning on the WhatsApp wedding exchange, Tariq asks if the special adviser was "effectively the main driver" of this decision.
Liz Lloyd responds that she doesn't think so.
She says the first minister has a strong enough mind that if she had disagreed with her adviser's advice, then "she would have said so, or she would have acted in another capacity, asked for further advice, delayed the position on weddings".
"I am advising but the decision is very much hers," Liz Lloyd adds.
Were decisions 'made on the hoof?'
Junior counsel to the inquiry Usman Tariq asks if setting the number at 20 people allowed at a wedding or funeral was an example of decisions being "made on the hoof".
Liz Lloyd replies: "I would think that advising that shortly before the statement on restrictions was about to be made, that a decision should be made to change the limit without seeking scientific advice would be on the hoof aspect."
She says sticking with the decision was a more coherent position.
WhatsApp messages show Sturgeon was 'not sure' what to do
The inquiry now turns to the first series of WhatsApp messages to be interrogated today.
A WhatsApp exchange is shown on screen discussing restrictions on the number of people allowed at weddings and funerals - with a time stamp of 12:09. Sturgeon was due to give a public briefing at 12:20 that day.
In the message, Sturgeon said the UK government was reducing the number permitted at weddings but she was "not sure what to".
Lloyd responded at the current advice for Scotland is 20 and that should remain.
Tariq now asks Lloyd whether this is an example of decision that was made at last minute over WhatsApp. Lloyd says decision of 20 had been previously made through normal cabinet processes.
"I gave my view that we don't need to remake that decision," she says.
Live Reporting
Edited by Paul McLaren and Emily McGarvey
All times stated are UK
Lloyd says she was 'Grinch' over Christmas restrictions
Just before the break, the inquiry turned to more messages between Lloyd and Sturgeon in which they discuss Covid restrictions over Christmas during the pandemic.
Lloyd writes that she is "increasingly leaning" to allowing socialisation with one other household at Christmas.
She adds: "But I'm also a Grinch about Christmas". Sturgeon responds: "I am too - but on this I (reluctantly) think there's merit in UK-wide position".
Lloyd tells the inquiry that the Scottish government was "essentially bounced by the UK government into a position about Christmas".
"Telling people they can't have it when the UK government has said you can was a very difficult situation to be put in," she adds.
A short break
The inquiry is taking a quick tea break now.
Liz Lloyd will be back in the hot seat at 11:30GMT to continue her evidence, and we will be here bringing you her key lines.
Stick with us.
The Nike conference, Scotland's first recognised outbreak of Covid
We've heard the inquiry talk about Scotland's first recognised outbreak of Covid, which was traced to a Nike conference in Edinburgh, but did not result in community transmission of the virus.
A Public Health Scotland report found a single case among the 71 delegates led to 38 further infections.
It was reported to Health Protection Scotland on 2 March 2020, the day after Scotland's first confirmed case of the virus was announced.
But it only became public following a BBC Disclosure investigation.
The then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon later hit back at suggestions that the outbreak was covered up and said details were not made public at the time because of patient confidentiality guidelines.
Lloyd in favour of telling public about first Covid outbreak
Usman Tariq says Liz Loyd was in favour of telling the public about a Nike conference in Edinburgh - Scotland's first recognised outbreak of Covid.
The then chief medical officer, Dr Catherine Calderwood gave strong advice not to say anything specific.
Lloyd says she would still have favoured making information available, but Dr Calderwood cited patient confidentiality.
Lloyd explains that is why she asked for advice on what could be said, and the first case of Covid in Scotland had "media on their doorstep".
Tariq asks if this gives the impression of a cover up and Liz Lloyd replies she does not see it that way.
Sturgeon devoted vast amounts of time to pandemic - Lloyd
The inquiry hears that in September 2021, Nicola Sturgeon announced work was restarting on a second referendum on Scottish independence.
Tariq asks Lloyd whether that reflected a change in priority for the first minister away from the pandemic.
Lloyd says at that point, she wasn't there day-to-day, but her recollection is that Sturgeon remained focussed on the pandemic response.
"She devoted vast amounts of time to the pandemic," Lloyd says. "You can think about more than one thing when you're first minister."
Lloyd adds that the cabinet secretary for the constitution largely led the independence discussions.
Public spats and poor relationships
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
The language is fruity, but the sense of frustration is real.
Without funding from the UK Treasury the Scottish government was unable to impose restrictions on businesses.
The messages reveal that the former first minister’s chief of staff, Liz Lloyd, was up for “a good old-fashioned rammy” with the UK government.
The idea seems to be to publicly shame them into agreeing to provide financial support.
It was a “public spat for a purpose” and further evidence of the poor relationship between the politicians of Scotland’s two different governments.
Frustration over who managed Covid rules in Scotland
More WhatsApp messages are shown, in which Lloyd says her advice to set the UK government a timeline on furlough ending is "purely political", describing it as "a good old fashioned rammy".
Lloyd says this is an expression of frustration that "we were not able to manage the pandemic at this point in time the way we wanted".
"There were a lot of things in Covid where we did not have the argument in public," she says, that there were times when the UK government did not do things and "we just let it go".
Johnson 'not informed' during Covid meetings - Lloyd
Liz Lloyd says relations between the Scottish and UK government were strained.
During meetings between Boris Johnson and the heads of the UK's devolved governments, the PM summarised the first ministers' contributions in ways that missed the points they had made, she says.
Lloyd says it felt like Johnson was "reading a script".
"It was difficult. It was more effective at the beginning although it was obvious they were not hugely keen on having us there," she says.
Lloyd adds that it was "actually quite effective" when Dominic Raab was temporarily in charge while Johnson was in hospital with Covid.
When Johnson returned from hospital, it became clear that he was "not informed" and did not want to be in the meetings, she adds.
Lloyd: Independence generally wasn't discussed during Covid
Liz Lloyd says the subject of Scottish independence was raised in a cabinet meeting during the pandemic and it was agreed that consideration should be given to restarting work on independence and a referendum.
Cabinet papers note that consideration should be given to "arguments reflecting the experience of the coronavirus crisis and developments on EU exit".
Lloyd says Brexit was the focus of the cabinet's discussion that day, and that no action on independence or a referendum was taken until the end of 2020.
Brexit was the dominant constitutional concern of the Scottish government in 2020.
Asked when independence became a subject under discussion again, Lloyd says it generally wasn't discussed during the pandemic.
At the start of the pandemic, the team working on Scottish independence was disbanded and reallocated to work on the government's Covid response.
She adds that nothing really happened until after the 2021 Holyrood election.
WhatsApps show Sturgeon called Johnson a 'clown'
Usman Tariq turns again to the WhatsApp messages and warns there may be some bad language.
He picks up on the messages between Liz Lloyd and Nicola Sturgeon on communications from the UK government when Boris Johnson was prime minister at the time.
Tariq quotes Sturgeon who wrote: "He is a [expletive] clown".
Lloyd, Sturgeon's former chief of staff, says this was the end result of a day that had been "quite shambolic from the UK government".
"We were clearly not very complementary about their communications handling that day," she says.
Tariq asks if the relationship between Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon had broken down.
Lloyd says Johnson "did not want to be on the calls" and "engagement came to be seen as slightly pointless".
UK government didn't grant Scotland funding it wanted - Lloyd
Next, we're looking at some handwritten notes Lloyd scrawled regarding funding from the UK government.
On the page is a note that says: "Political tactics - calling for things we can't do to force UK."
Tariq asks if the strategy of the Scottish government was to create a public spat with the UK government to force their hand.
Lloyd says this is not about a spat, "it's about putting pressure on the UK government".
"It was about weighing up how restrictions could be introduced to break the Covid circuit with minimum economic impact - the UK government did not grant the Scottish government the funding to do what they wanted," she says.
"When private discussions do not get you to the place where you have access to the finances that you need to do that, you have to disclose to the public why you're not doing it.
"I don't call that a spat. Although I wrote political tactic, its not partisan."
A note on strong language in the live feed
Some very strong language is being broadcast on the live feed from the inquiry as messages are read out in evidence.
This is because the counsel to the inquiry has decided that this evidence is pertinent to its aim of examining the UK’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic, and trying to learn lessons for the future.
While the BBC would not normally broadcast such strong language, we believe there is a clear public interest in reporting the inquiry's proceedings in full.
Cabinet sometimes pushed back on Covid proposals - Lloyd
Lloyd says that all the decisions that went before the Scottish government's cabinet were proposals, and not decisions taken by either Nicola Sturgeon or her deputy, John Swinney.
She says if ministers had wanted to push back on any of the proposals there would be genuine discussions. "Cabinet ministers sometimes pushed back, asked for changes or deferred decisions until there was more information available," she says.
Lloyd adds that there was also extensive engagement with cabinet prior to meeting.
When the Scottish government brought in a system which assigned different levels of Covid restrictions to each council area, the final decision on each area was left to the first minister to make, she adds. This was because decisions were taken shortly before levels were announced in order to take into account the most recent data.
Lloyd asked about political strategy behind Covid response
The inquiry's junior counsel Tariq is now turning to what he calls the political strategy behind the Scottish government's Covid-19 response.
He points to some minutes from a government meeting Lloyd was present at from June 2020. In the conclusion, it says consideration should be given to restarting work on an independence referendum reflecting the Covid crisis and developments on the UK exiting the European Union.
"What is the significance of this discussion?" he asks.
Lloyd says there was a discussion on the exit from the EU, but not independence.
She says the fact that something is in the cabinet conclusion doesn't necessarily mean there was an active discussion on that.
If there had been a discussion, "it would have been in my notes - it is not," she says.
WhatsApps show self-doubt behind the scenes
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
The former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has always presented a very confident and assured face in public.
These WhatsApp messages between her and her closest adviser and self-described “thought-partner” Liz Lloyd indicate that behind the scenes there was more self-doubt.
Lloyd describes Sturgeon’s query about whether the number who can attend weddings should change depending on what the UK government is doing as a “split second of indecision”.
Though Liz Lloyd has played down the significance of this exchange, the inquiry is suggesting that without such messages we wouldn’t have such insights.
'The science underpinned everything' - Lloyd
Usman Tariq asks if the science was the be all and end all in decision making on Covid measures.
"The science underpinned everything," replies Liz Lloyd.
Science was dominant, the former chief of staff adds, but other things were taken into account.
Figures on indoor meetings weren't 'pulled out of the air'
We're now looking at another WhatsApp exchange in which Lloyd and Sturgeon are discussing restrictions on indoor meetings.
In the exchange, Lloyd advises Sturgeon that six people from three households would be much more "normal".
She says she hasn't pulled these figures out of the air, that they came from official proposals.
Lloyd now says: "Sometimes when you looked at the advice that was given, you have to think through what this will mean for people living their lives in practice."
She says she recalls her thinking at that time was that it meant it may be easier for families to gather.
I advised but the decision was Sturgeon's - Lloyd
Sticking with questioning on the WhatsApp wedding exchange, Tariq asks if the special adviser was "effectively the main driver" of this decision.
Liz Lloyd responds that she doesn't think so.
She says the first minister has a strong enough mind that if she had disagreed with her adviser's advice, then "she would have said so, or she would have acted in another capacity, asked for further advice, delayed the position on weddings".
"I am advising but the decision is very much hers," Liz Lloyd adds.
Were decisions 'made on the hoof?'
Junior counsel to the inquiry Usman Tariq asks if setting the number at 20 people allowed at a wedding or funeral was an example of decisions being "made on the hoof".
Liz Lloyd replies: "I would think that advising that shortly before the statement on restrictions was about to be made, that a decision should be made to change the limit without seeking scientific advice would be on the hoof aspect."
She says sticking with the decision was a more coherent position.
WhatsApp messages show Sturgeon was 'not sure' what to do
The inquiry now turns to the first series of WhatsApp messages to be interrogated today.
A WhatsApp exchange is shown on screen discussing restrictions on the number of people allowed at weddings and funerals - with a time stamp of 12:09. Sturgeon was due to give a public briefing at 12:20 that day.
In the message, Sturgeon said the UK government was reducing the number permitted at weddings but she was "not sure what to".
Lloyd responded at the current advice for Scotland is 20 and that should remain.
Tariq now asks Lloyd whether this is an example of decision that was made at last minute over WhatsApp. Lloyd says decision of 20 had been previously made through normal cabinet processes.
"I gave my view that we don't need to remake that decision," she says.