Oh to have been a fly on the wall of the Scottish cabinet as it met in December 2021, when the Covid Omicron variant was taking off.
Politicians at the time were, of course, under extreme pressure - but the inquiry's questioning of both John Swinney and Kate Forbes today included private messages from after a meeting which suggested the first minister at the time, Nicola Sturgeon, was not at all happy.
Humza Yousaf, then the health secretary, said he had taken “a bullet” and that Sturgeon was “ranting” at him, as he offered millions from his health budget to help businesses if restrictions were strengthened.
The inquiry suggested again and again that the cabinet was a ratifying body for decisions being made by the Sturgeon and a small group of others.
But John Swinney defended the government's decision-making processes.
He said cabinet minutes would show if there were any disagreements and that ministers wrestled with dilemmas. But he was also blunt in his assessment that if a minister couldn't live with the final decisions, then they could resign. It's worth remembering no-one did.
Goodbye for now
Sam Hancock
Live reporter
We're bringing our live coverage of today's Covid inquiry hearing to an end - thanks for sticking with us as we heard from two senior members of Nicola Sturgeon's government during the pandemic.
If you're only just coming to this page, or need a recap of the day's events, you can read the main takeaways here. You can also read our main news story about how the day unfolded by heading here.
Speaking of Sturgeon, she's due at the inquiry tomorrow and will be giving evidence once again. We'll be following that live too.
Until then, today's coverage was brought to you by Emma Harrison, Olivia Otigbah, Christy Cooney, Craig Hutchison, Ashleigh Keenan-Bryce, Paul McLaren and me.
Analysis
Forbes focused on the system, not individuals
Georgia Roberts
BBC Scotland Westminster correspondent
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
Relations between the UK government and Scottish government
have been a running theme of questioning in these hearings.
Other witnesses from the Scottish government have
highlighted frustration at the often last minute communication of information
or a lack of access to information and singled out key UK government ministers
in their criticism.
Kate Forbes, whilst agreeing with those difficulties, chose not to do this earlier.
She agreed there were hurdles, highlighted examples where
the Scottish government would find out additional funding had been announced
for a certain area 24 hours after her team had been told none was
available, and how that would’ve aided Scotland’s own planning processes
immensely.
But she didn't put it down to a case of personalities
and politics, rather she blamed the system that’s in place for funding
towards Scotland from the UK government that didn’t give budget guarantees and
sufficient flexibilities.
It’s clear that Forbes was well-liked in UK government by
some senior figures, with Michael Gove yesterday calling her among the more constructive
ministers to work with during the pandemic.
The key things to know from today
That was a mammoth evidence session from Scotland's former Deputy First Minister John Swinney, in which he discussed - among other things - deleting Covid-related messages to then FM Nicola Sturgeon.
Here's what he told the inquiry:
Swinney said he manually deleted messages with Sturgeon during the pandemic - he said this was in line with government policy and he made sure his private office was told of any relevant material
Scotland's former education secretary said he felt there was no alternative to closing schools during the second lockdown
He rejected suggestions that Sturgeon took decisions herself, without consulting her cabinet, but admitted some choices - including closing schools - were taken by him and Sturgeon alone
Swinney, also the former deputy first minister, was questioned on the so-called gold command meetings - gatherings involving Sturgeon, a small group of advisers and ministers - and admitted notes should've been circulated
Before him, we heard from former Scottish Finance Secretary Kate Forbes, who said she wasn't initially invited to these special meetings and expressed surprise that there was no official record of them.
Here's what else she said:
Forbes said she did not delete any of her WhatsApp messages with senior colleagues during the pandemic - she told the inquiry that she later became aware of a policy that required this to happen
She admitted there should have been "a lot more discussion on how to budget for the pandemic" ahead of her first Budget in March 2020
Swinney ends evidence by criticising UK Scotland Secretary Jack
BBCCopyright: BBC
Bringing today's hearing to an end, John Swinney's questioned by Claire Mitchell KC on behalf of the Covid Bereaved Scotland group.
Mitchell quotes written evidence submitted by Swinney in
which he says he experienced “no tangible presence” of the UK government's Scotland Secretary Alister Jack in any aspect of the handling of the pandemic, and asks whether any efforts were made to engage him.
“The short answer’s probably no, because there was no real
value in it,” Swinney says, adding:
Quote Message: In my experience, the secretary of state for Scotland would have contributed nothing of any useful value in assisting us in that process."
In my experience, the secretary of state for Scotland would have contributed nothing of any useful value in assisting us in that process."
He adds that he would not say the same thing about Jack’s predecessor, David Mundell, who was Scottish Secretary from 2015-19.
That's it for today's session, and for our live text updates. We're going to bring you a round-up of what we learnt in just a moment - hang tight.
Inquiry chair asks Swinney to keep answers brief
BBCCopyright: BBC
Lady Hallett smiled as she told Swinney he wasn't "the only one" who gave long answers - "maybe it's a political thing" she jokedImage caption: Lady Hallett smiled as she told Swinney he wasn't "the only one" who gave long answers - "maybe it's a political thing" she joked
That's the end of inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson's questions for John Swinney.
There's some time allotted to Claire Mitchell KC, though, on behalf of the Scottish Covid bereaved group - but not before a small ask from the inquiry's chair Lady Hallett.
With a smile on her face, she tells Swinney that he's not the only politician she's had to say this to, but he's "inclined to give very long answers".
"Ms Mitchell has limited time so to be fair to those she represents, the Scottish bereaved, please could you try and focus on her questions," she asks of Swinney, who apologises.
Swinney defends relationship with councils
Conversation now turns to the relationship between the Scottish government and local authorities during Covid, which John Swinney indicates he thought was good.
Inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson KC quotes a number of councils who say they felt the Scottish government made decisions without involving them.
Asked if his assertion that he had a good working relationship with local authorities was perhaps misguided, the former deputy first minister says he's "sorry that's how they feel".
He adds that he's disappointed people don't share his view there was an equal partnership and, again, defends his relations with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Cosla).
Why did Scotland have a five-tier system?
We've moved on from school closures now.
John Swinney, Scotland's former deputy first minister, is asked why the Scottish government opted for a five-tier lockdown system - compared with England's three tier-system.
He says the difference in each country's geographical landscape was taken into consideration.
"We judged that we needed to have sufficient amount of variation between levels to take account of some very different circumstances in Scotland geographically and in demographic terms," Swinney tells the inquiry.
"Scotland is a very diverse country."
Analysis
Another blow to Sturgeon and Swinney's decision-making process
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
Most parents in Scotland will tell you they
developed a new respect for the teaching profession after home-schooling their
children during the Covid pandemic.
We've now learned the closure of schools
wasn't underpinned by legislation, but was "an expression of leadership in
a desperate moment".
This wasn't a decision taken in cabinet, it
was one taken by John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon after a cabinet meeting.
It's a prime example of one of the themes that the inquiry has been teasing
out, as to whether the cabinet was there to make decisions - or to ratify
conclusions reached by the first minister.
The inquiry has heard from one
epidemiologist who said it was unnecessary. He spoke movingly about the impact
closures had on children.
But Swinney indicated that wasn't the
advice that he had on his desk. He said with parental anxiety growing and
attendance deteriorating, clarity was needed.
Swinney: Would have been reckless to ignore epidemiological advice
Swinney says an audit commissioned by the Scottish government in the summer of 2020, about the impact of school closures, showed "there had been a negative impact on children's learning and development" in the first lockdown.
Asked by inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson if he had this information by the time he decided to close schools in the second lockdown, Swinney says: "Yes but I did not feel I had an alternative because of ... the deeply serious situation that we faced and I didn't in all honesty think I could ignore the epidemiological advice that was being put in front of me."
After a brief pause, he adds:
Quote Message: I think that would have been, frankly, reckless."
I think that would have been, frankly, reckless."
Swinney pushed on failure to reopen schools earlier
BBCCopyright: BBC
Still on school closures, John Swinney tells the Covid inquiry he didn't have the evidence in front of him to support opening schools earlier than they were.
The inquiry lawyer says epidemiological professionals have since pointed out it would've been safe to do so, to which Swinney says "that's not the advice I had in front of me".
Swinney goes on to say that during the second lockdown, the number of pupils being educated in schools was greater than in the first.
He insists that the epidemiological information and the condition of the pandemic were driving" all the decisions that he took in relation to schools reopening.
No checks on children's mental health before schools closed, Swinney admits
John Swinney's being pushed for clarity on what impact assessments - if any - were made before schools in Scotland were closed during the pandemic.
The former deputy first minister says there was neither the "time or opportunity to carry those out" - but local authorities were "encouraged to ensure appropriate provision of education was put in place" for pupils.
Further assessments on children's mental health and those with disabilities or learning difficulties were also not carried out "at that moment", he says, adding
Quote Message: We wanted - and we made clear - that the resumption of full time face-to-face education was of the highest priority for the Scottish government."
We wanted - and we made clear - that the resumption of full time face-to-face education was of the highest priority for the Scottish government."
Swinney says decision to close schools made by him and Sturgeon
More now on Scotland's decision to close schools back in 2020. Swinney says the Scottish government relied on advice from
the UK government’s Sage [the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies] advisory body when taking the decision.
The inquiry lawyer asks whether the reliance was appropriate given that the
situation in London at that point was worse than in Scotland.
“I think it was because I think it was pretty clear that what
was happening in London was coming our way, and it would be coming our way
pretty shortly thereafter,” he says.
Swinney also acknowledges that the decision to close schools was taken during a conversation only between him and the then-First Minister
Nicola Sturgeon, not in a discussion involving the full cabinet. He said this was because "events were moving at an
absolutely ferocious pace".
'We were in danger of operating an unsafe situation'
Inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson KC, asking the questions today, says he wants to return to the issue of school closure during the pandemic.
He asks John Swinney about informal conversations he had with then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon which led to schools being closed towards the end of March 2020, despite there not yet being scientific evidence to back the decision up.
The former deputy FM says that on the evening of 17 March, he was provided with advice from education officials who thought it likely Sage would conclude the next day that there would be epidemiology evidence to back closures.
He adds that there was data showing a declining number of staff and students attending schools due to Covid.
"We were in danger of operating an unsafe situation," he says.
Public opinion didn't influence government, Swinney says
Swinney's being asked if the Scottish government's decisions were ever influenced by the "perceived tolerance" of the Scottish people.
The former deputy first minister denies ever being swayed by public opinion.
He says people "understood the seriousness of the situation we faced" and showed "remarkable willingness to play their part" in the fight against Covid.
He does, however, acknowledge people's frustration with the pandemic and the decisions being made at the time. "We just had to be open" about the challenges Scotland faced, he adds.
Inquiry chair intervenes to clarify Swinney's answer
BBCCopyright: BBC
Still on Scotland's second lockdown in 2021, inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson suggests that the decision made to go into it was based solely on trying to suppress Covid - taking no notice or assessment of the other harms that would be done by another lockdown.
"That is a way of looking at it," John Swinney replies.
The inquiry's chair Lady Hallett intervenes here to ask whether the answer to Dawson's question was yes or no, to which Swinney says: "I suppose the answer is yes".
"We took a decision based on the direct health harm because of the extremity of the situation we faced," he explains.
Swinney says he didn't much like Dawson's wording, which is why his answer seemed unclear.
Days before second lockdown 'terrifying' - Swinney
John Swinney is being asked about the government's decision to move into a second lockdown
in January 2021, and whether Scotland had failed to learn lessons from the first lockdown.
He describes the period before the decision as a "terrifying couple of days".
“The harm one [direct health impact of
Covid] evidence was absolutely terrifying about what was coming our way,” he
recalls, adding that the "circumstances were
very similar, if not identical, to the situation we faced in March 2020".
"Whichever way you looked at the evidence,
it was just impossible to see any way through it other than having to take
significant intervention to arrest the pace of the pandemic," Swinney tells the inquiry.
Swinney apologises to people who felt left behind by government
Returning to the topic of vulnerable people being overlooked, inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson says one gentleman has told the inquiry he felt those with mental health difficulties were "left behind" when Scotland "started to emerge from lockdown".
John Swinney replies by saying he's "sorry if any individual feels that way".
He says the government was trying to return society to as much normality as it could whilst supressing the virus.
The former deputy first minister adds he took the best decisions he could at the time - he's acknowledged already that sometimes no option was ideal.
'We had to let people live slightly more normally'
BBCCopyright: BBC
We're back from a break now - just before it, John Swinney mentioned schools reopening in Scotland in August 2020.
He said this was because there had been a very significant drop in Covid cases over the summer.
Therefore the government "had to try to enable people to live lives slightly more normally", with education one of the most important priorities.
Swinney did, however, acknowledge that the early opening of schools may have contributed to a sudden rise in Covid cases thereafter.
Remember, you can watch Swinney's evidence-giving live by clicking the 'play' button at the top of this page.
Analysis
A rare opportunity to see messages between senior ministers
David Wallace Lockhart
Political correspondent
While the inquiry has a brief recess, let's recall something that's come up more than once today.
We've been shown two WhatsApp conversations that refer to a
moment in cabinet, in December 2021, when Humza Yousaf said £100m of the health
budget could be redirected towards business support.
It looks like some attendees were unhappy at him bringing
this up for the first time at the cabinet table.
Kate Forbes, who gave evidence this morning, said to an official she’d “never seen the FM
[Nicola Sturgeon] this angry in all my cabinets”.
Yousaf messaged National Clinical Director
Professor Jason Leitch to say Sturgeon was “not remotely happy”. Prof Leitch replied to say Sturgeon was “absolutely ridiculous”.
Most political journalists would love to be a fly on the
wall for cabinet meetings.
But this rare opportunity to see WhatsApp messages in the
wake of discussions is probably the next best thing.
Live Reporting
Edited by Paul McLaren and Sam Hancock
All times stated are UK
Analysis
Analysis
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media -
Swinney said he manually deleted messages with Sturgeon during the pandemic - he said this was in line with government policy and he made sure his private office was told of any relevant material
-
Scotland's former education secretary said he felt there was no alternative to closing schools during the second lockdown
-
He rejected suggestions that Sturgeon took decisions herself, without consulting her cabinet, but admitted some choices - including closing schools - were taken by him and Sturgeon alone
-
Swinney, also the former deputy first minister, was questioned on the so-called gold command meetings - gatherings involving Sturgeon, a small group of advisers and ministers - and admitted notes should've been circulated
-
Forbes said she did not delete any of her WhatsApp messages with senior colleagues during the pandemic - she told the inquiry that she later became aware of a policy that required this to happen
-
She admitted there should have been "a lot more discussion on how to budget for the pandemic" ahead of her first Budget in March 2020
BBCCopyright: BBC 
BBCCopyright: BBC Lady Hallett smiled as she told Swinney he wasn't "the only one" who gave long answers - "maybe it's a political thing" she jokedImage caption: Lady Hallett smiled as she told Swinney he wasn't "the only one" who gave long answers - "maybe it's a political thing" she joked Analysis
BBCCopyright: BBC 
BBCCopyright: BBC 
BBCCopyright: BBC Analysis
Latest PostAn insight into Sturgeon's cabinet during Covid
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
Oh to have been a fly on the wall of the Scottish cabinet as it met in December 2021, when the Covid Omicron variant was taking off.
Politicians at the time were, of course, under extreme pressure - but the inquiry's questioning of both John Swinney and Kate Forbes today included private messages from after a meeting which suggested the first minister at the time, Nicola Sturgeon, was not at all happy.
Humza Yousaf, then the health secretary, said he had taken “a bullet” and that Sturgeon was “ranting” at him, as he offered millions from his health budget to help businesses if restrictions were strengthened.
The inquiry suggested again and again that the cabinet was a ratifying body for decisions being made by the Sturgeon and a small group of others.
But John Swinney defended the government's decision-making processes.
He said cabinet minutes would show if there were any disagreements and that ministers wrestled with dilemmas. But he was also blunt in his assessment that if a minister couldn't live with the final decisions, then they could resign. It's worth remembering no-one did.
Goodbye for now
Sam Hancock
Live reporter
We're bringing our live coverage of today's Covid inquiry hearing to an end - thanks for sticking with us as we heard from two senior members of Nicola Sturgeon's government during the pandemic.
If you're only just coming to this page, or need a recap of the day's events, you can read the main takeaways here. You can also read our main news story about how the day unfolded by heading here.
Speaking of Sturgeon, she's due at the inquiry tomorrow and will be giving evidence once again. We'll be following that live too.
Until then, today's coverage was brought to you by Emma Harrison, Olivia Otigbah, Christy Cooney, Craig Hutchison, Ashleigh Keenan-Bryce, Paul McLaren and me.
Forbes focused on the system, not individuals
Georgia Roberts
BBC Scotland Westminster correspondent
Relations between the UK government and Scottish government have been a running theme of questioning in these hearings.
Other witnesses from the Scottish government have highlighted frustration at the often last minute communication of information or a lack of access to information and singled out key UK government ministers in their criticism.
Kate Forbes, whilst agreeing with those difficulties, chose not to do this earlier.
She agreed there were hurdles, highlighted examples where the Scottish government would find out additional funding had been announced for a certain area 24 hours after her team had been told none was available, and how that would’ve aided Scotland’s own planning processes immensely.
But she didn't put it down to a case of personalities and politics, rather she blamed the system that’s in place for funding towards Scotland from the UK government that didn’t give budget guarantees and sufficient flexibilities.
It’s clear that Forbes was well-liked in UK government by some senior figures, with Michael Gove yesterday calling her among the more constructive ministers to work with during the pandemic.
The key things to know from today
That was a mammoth evidence session from Scotland's former Deputy First Minister John Swinney, in which he discussed - among other things - deleting Covid-related messages to then FM Nicola Sturgeon.
Here's what he told the inquiry:
Before him, we heard from former Scottish Finance Secretary Kate Forbes, who said she wasn't initially invited to these special meetings and expressed surprise that there was no official record of them.
Here's what else she said:
Swinney ends evidence by criticising UK Scotland Secretary Jack
Bringing today's hearing to an end, John Swinney's questioned by Claire Mitchell KC on behalf of the Covid Bereaved Scotland group.
Mitchell quotes written evidence submitted by Swinney in which he says he experienced “no tangible presence” of the UK government's Scotland Secretary Alister Jack in any aspect of the handling of the pandemic, and asks whether any efforts were made to engage him.
“The short answer’s probably no, because there was no real value in it,” Swinney says, adding:
He adds that he would not say the same thing about Jack’s predecessor, David Mundell, who was Scottish Secretary from 2015-19.
That's it for today's session, and for our live text updates. We're going to bring you a round-up of what we learnt in just a moment - hang tight.
Inquiry chair asks Swinney to keep answers brief
That's the end of inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson's questions for John Swinney.
There's some time allotted to Claire Mitchell KC, though, on behalf of the Scottish Covid bereaved group - but not before a small ask from the inquiry's chair Lady Hallett.
With a smile on her face, she tells Swinney that he's not the only politician she's had to say this to, but he's "inclined to give very long answers".
"Ms Mitchell has limited time so to be fair to those she represents, the Scottish bereaved, please could you try and focus on her questions," she asks of Swinney, who apologises.
Swinney defends relationship with councils
Conversation now turns to the relationship between the Scottish government and local authorities during Covid, which John Swinney indicates he thought was good.
Inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson KC quotes a number of councils who say they felt the Scottish government made decisions without involving them.
Asked if his assertion that he had a good working relationship with local authorities was perhaps misguided, the former deputy first minister says he's "sorry that's how they feel".
He adds that he's disappointed people don't share his view there was an equal partnership and, again, defends his relations with the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities (Cosla).
Why did Scotland have a five-tier system?
We've moved on from school closures now.
John Swinney, Scotland's former deputy first minister, is asked why the Scottish government opted for a five-tier lockdown system - compared with England's three tier-system.
He says the difference in each country's geographical landscape was taken into consideration.
"We judged that we needed to have sufficient amount of variation between levels to take account of some very different circumstances in Scotland geographically and in demographic terms," Swinney tells the inquiry.
"Scotland is a very diverse country."
Another blow to Sturgeon and Swinney's decision-making process
Kirsten Campbell
BBC Scotland political correspondent
Most parents in Scotland will tell you they developed a new respect for the teaching profession after home-schooling their children during the Covid pandemic.
We've now learned the closure of schools wasn't underpinned by legislation, but was "an expression of leadership in a desperate moment".
This wasn't a decision taken in cabinet, it was one taken by John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon after a cabinet meeting. It's a prime example of one of the themes that the inquiry has been teasing out, as to whether the cabinet was there to make decisions - or to ratify conclusions reached by the first minister.
The inquiry has heard from one epidemiologist who said it was unnecessary. He spoke movingly about the impact closures had on children.
But Swinney indicated that wasn't the advice that he had on his desk. He said with parental anxiety growing and attendance deteriorating, clarity was needed.
Swinney: Would have been reckless to ignore epidemiological advice
Swinney says an audit commissioned by the Scottish government in the summer of 2020, about the impact of school closures, showed "there had been a negative impact on children's learning and development" in the first lockdown.
Asked by inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson if he had this information by the time he decided to close schools in the second lockdown, Swinney says: "Yes but I did not feel I had an alternative because of ... the deeply serious situation that we faced and I didn't in all honesty think I could ignore the epidemiological advice that was being put in front of me."
After a brief pause, he adds:
Swinney pushed on failure to reopen schools earlier
Still on school closures, John Swinney tells the Covid inquiry he didn't have the evidence in front of him to support opening schools earlier than they were.
The inquiry lawyer says epidemiological professionals have since pointed out it would've been safe to do so, to which Swinney says "that's not the advice I had in front of me".
Swinney goes on to say that during the second lockdown, the number of pupils being educated in schools was greater than in the first.
He insists that the epidemiological information and the condition of the pandemic were driving" all the decisions that he took in relation to schools reopening.
No checks on children's mental health before schools closed, Swinney admits
John Swinney's being pushed for clarity on what impact assessments - if any - were made before schools in Scotland were closed during the pandemic.
The former deputy first minister says there was neither the "time or opportunity to carry those out" - but local authorities were "encouraged to ensure appropriate provision of education was put in place" for pupils.
Further assessments on children's mental health and those with disabilities or learning difficulties were also not carried out "at that moment", he says, adding
Swinney says decision to close schools made by him and Sturgeon
More now on Scotland's decision to close schools back in 2020. Swinney says the Scottish government relied on advice from the UK government’s Sage [the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies] advisory body when taking the decision.
The inquiry lawyer asks whether the reliance was appropriate given that the situation in London at that point was worse than in Scotland.
“I think it was because I think it was pretty clear that what was happening in London was coming our way, and it would be coming our way pretty shortly thereafter,” he says.
Swinney also acknowledges that the decision to close schools was taken during a conversation only between him and the then-First Minister Nicola Sturgeon, not in a discussion involving the full cabinet. He said this was because "events were moving at an absolutely ferocious pace".
'We were in danger of operating an unsafe situation'
Inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson KC, asking the questions today, says he wants to return to the issue of school closure during the pandemic.
He asks John Swinney about informal conversations he had with then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon which led to schools being closed towards the end of March 2020, despite there not yet being scientific evidence to back the decision up.
The former deputy FM says that on the evening of 17 March, he was provided with advice from education officials who thought it likely Sage would conclude the next day that there would be epidemiology evidence to back closures.
He adds that there was data showing a declining number of staff and students attending schools due to Covid.
"We were in danger of operating an unsafe situation," he says.
Public opinion didn't influence government, Swinney says
Swinney's being asked if the Scottish government's decisions were ever influenced by the "perceived tolerance" of the Scottish people.
The former deputy first minister denies ever being swayed by public opinion.
He says people "understood the seriousness of the situation we faced" and showed "remarkable willingness to play their part" in the fight against Covid.
He does, however, acknowledge people's frustration with the pandemic and the decisions being made at the time. "We just had to be open" about the challenges Scotland faced, he adds.
Inquiry chair intervenes to clarify Swinney's answer
Still on Scotland's second lockdown in 2021, inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson suggests that the decision made to go into it was based solely on trying to suppress Covid - taking no notice or assessment of the other harms that would be done by another lockdown.
"That is a way of looking at it," John Swinney replies.
The inquiry's chair Lady Hallett intervenes here to ask whether the answer to Dawson's question was yes or no, to which Swinney says: "I suppose the answer is yes".
"We took a decision based on the direct health harm because of the extremity of the situation we faced," he explains.
Swinney says he didn't much like Dawson's wording, which is why his answer seemed unclear.
Days before second lockdown 'terrifying' - Swinney
John Swinney is being asked about the government's decision to move into a second lockdown in January 2021, and whether Scotland had failed to learn lessons from the first lockdown.
He describes the period before the decision as a "terrifying couple of days".
“The harm one [direct health impact of Covid] evidence was absolutely terrifying about what was coming our way,” he recalls, adding that the "circumstances were very similar, if not identical, to the situation we faced in March 2020".
"Whichever way you looked at the evidence, it was just impossible to see any way through it other than having to take significant intervention to arrest the pace of the pandemic," Swinney tells the inquiry.
Swinney apologises to people who felt left behind by government
Returning to the topic of vulnerable people being overlooked, inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson says one gentleman has told the inquiry he felt those with mental health difficulties were "left behind" when Scotland "started to emerge from lockdown".
John Swinney replies by saying he's "sorry if any individual feels that way".
He says the government was trying to return society to as much normality as it could whilst supressing the virus.
The former deputy first minister adds he took the best decisions he could at the time - he's acknowledged already that sometimes no option was ideal.
'We had to let people live slightly more normally'
We're back from a break now - just before it, John Swinney mentioned schools reopening in Scotland in August 2020.
He said this was because there had been a very significant drop in Covid cases over the summer.
Therefore the government "had to try to enable people to live lives slightly more normally", with education one of the most important priorities.
Swinney did, however, acknowledge that the early opening of schools may have contributed to a sudden rise in Covid cases thereafter.
Remember, you can watch Swinney's evidence-giving live by clicking the 'play' button at the top of this page.
A rare opportunity to see messages between senior ministers
David Wallace Lockhart
Political correspondent
While the inquiry has a brief recess, let's recall something that's come up more than once today.
We've been shown two WhatsApp conversations that refer to a moment in cabinet, in December 2021, when Humza Yousaf said £100m of the health budget could be redirected towards business support.
It looks like some attendees were unhappy at him bringing this up for the first time at the cabinet table.
Kate Forbes, who gave evidence this morning, said to an official she’d “never seen the FM [Nicola Sturgeon] this angry in all my cabinets”.
Yousaf messaged National Clinical Director Professor Jason Leitch to say Sturgeon was “not remotely happy”. Prof Leitch replied to say Sturgeon was “absolutely ridiculous”.
Most political journalists would love to be a fly on the wall for cabinet meetings.
But this rare opportunity to see WhatsApp messages in the wake of discussions is probably the next best thing.