Barbara Tasch
Live page editor

We are now ending our live page of the Post Office inquiry. Thanks for joining us.

For more, check our write through of today's hearings.

Today’s page was written by Jenna Moon, Thomas Mackintosh and Jake Lapham. It was edited by Emily Atkinson, Barbara Tasch and Andrew Humphrey.

Thanks for following along with us as we took you through another day at the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry.

Today we heard from Business Secretary Jonathan Reynolds, former business secretary and Tory leader, Kemi Badenoch, and the director of Fujitsu's European arm, Paul Patterson.

Here are some key moments from today:

• First up on the witness stand was Reynolds, who said change was needed "right down to the internal governance of the Post Office”
• He said he would consider setting a deadline for payouts to affected sub-postmasters, but refused to be drawn a redress scheme for family members

• It was then the turn of Badenoch, whospoke of her "frustration" over the slow process for remunerating victims, which she blamed in part on the what she called the "government machine"

• Badenoch said she was "angry" that the dismissal of former PO chair Henry Staunton was leaked to the press because she wanted to "spare him any public embarrassment"

• Patterson, who just wrapped up his remarks, said he still didn't know whether the Horizon IT system was reliable and that he would be "very worried" if its Post Office contract was renewed
• He also recommitted to compensating victims of the scandal, without going into details

Tom Beal
BBC Investigations journalist

Earlier today, Kemi Badenoch was asked by Sam Stein KC - a lawyer representing sub-postmasters - about her meetings with Fujitsu to discuss their contribution to compensation for victims of the Post Office scandal.

She said she could not remember names and dates, but recalled a meeting “when I asked for them to do something early to show goodwill.”

This meeting was on 12 March 2024 and the BBC has obtained details of it - she met with Fujitsu’s global CEO Takahito Tokita and Paul Patterson, who just finished his evidence.

The official account of the meeting shows Badenoch suggesting an “early gesture” from the company would be “helpful”.

Fujitsu has said the right time to make these payments is after the inquiry has concluded and that it will be “working with the UK government on the appropriate actions, including contribution to compensation”.

Stein also asked if Badenoch, in her role as leader of the Conservative Party, could encourage Fujitsu to “perhaps do something sooner rather than later”, which she said was a role for the secretary of state.

And with that, Fujitsu director Paul Patterson's evidence is over and the inquiry is done for the day.

Here's some of the top lines from his evidence:

• Patterson accepted responsibility for three failures, including Fujitsu putting too little focus on the impacts of sub-postmasters and not providing sufficient support for employees when they flagged concerns over Horizon
• In a tense exchange with the counsel to the inquiry, Patterson repeatedly said he didn't know whether the Horizon system was "sufficient to produce reliable accounts"
• Patterson conceded that there were still "bugs, errors and defects" in the software today - and said he would be "very worried" if the Post Office extended its Horizon contract
• Pushed on why Fujitsu was waiting for the inquiry to end to compensate victims, Patterson said the matter was "complex"

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

For his final question, inquiry counsel Sam Stein KC asks Paul Patterson why Fujitsu was waiting for the end of the inquiry to offers compensation to victims.

Patterson says that the matter is complex and at the end of this week "we'll have a better idea" about how to contribute.

Inquiry chair Sir Wyn Williams interjects to ask if the company is waiting for the end of the inquiry so Fujitsu can better understand what it can do for victims.

Patterson and Stein get into a heated exchange over when the Fujitsu boss will commit to meeting with sub-postmasters.

Thomas Mackintosh
Reporting from the inquiry

Finally, Sam Stein KC, a lawyer representing sub-postmasters, moves to question Paul Patterson on a letter he sent to outgoing Post Office CEO Nick Read in May.

Stein reads the following excerpt: "It seems the PO may be continuing to pursue postmasters for shortfalls in their accounts using Horizon data. It should not be relying on Horizon data for the basis for such shortfall enforcement."

Stein asks: "Did you mean what you said?"

"I know what I wrote," Patterson replies.

Stein pushes again on whether Patterson meant what he said.

"Yes, Mr Stein," the Fujitsu boss answers.

Inquiry chair Sir Wyn Williams intervenes to ask whether it should, in hindsight, read "it should not be relying solely" - Patterson agrees.

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

Image source, Post Office inquiry

Angela Patrick, representing sub-postmasters and their families, asks Patterson what he learned from testimony of sub-postmasters.

He says he is still unclear about what Fujitsu can do aside from provide sums of money, but the company is examining it.

"Frankly, we've struggled though to figure out how," Patterson admits.

Patrick also asks if the year will end before Patterson takes a position on if he can engage more with Lost Chances, an organisation that represents the children of impacted sub-postmasters.

He says the company wants to explore topics and areas to engage with, and says he "owes it to you to look at what the new structure looks like".

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

We've just returned from a brief break and anticipate to be here slightly after the expected 16:30 GMT wrap time.

News that we would be continuing until 17:20 GMT this evening was met with some quiet grumbling from attendees.

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

Inquiry counsel Justin Blake moves to his questions for Patterson on redress for victims of the Post Office scandal.

He asks the Fujitsu boss to explain previous comments that it was a "moral obligation" to participate in redress.

"I stand by, and the company does stand by" the comments, he says.

Having heard the evidence presented at the inquiry, Blake asks how Fujitsu plans compensate those affected.

"We see that as being a conversation with government", he says, but says Fujitsu has not yet suggested any specific number that it might provide.

"I welcome the opportunity to talk to the new secretary of state in due course", he adds.

Patterson says that Fujitsu sees itself contributing to redress schemes established by the government.

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

Image source, Post Office inquiry

Patterson is now being asked about his fifth witness statement.

The Post Office's Horizon contract is meant to end on 31 March 2025, but inquiry counsel Julian Blake says it's is possible that there could be a five-year extension.

He asks if Patterson thinks it would be possible to make Horizon data more reliable in that time - or could it get worse?

Patterson says that he is "very worried about it ... it needs to be the shortest possible time entirely" since the system is meant to be wound down and is not supposed to continue operations.

"I think it's very, very difficult to know whether three years, four years, or five years will be ... possible".

Thomas Mackintosh
Reporting from the inquiry

A letter sent by Paul Patterson in July this year to the Post Office is pulled up on screen.

In the letter, Patterson says it is "unfortunate" that outgoing Post Office CEO Nick Read could not attend a meeting that month.

Patterson said he wanted to escalate "CEO to CEO the concerns relating to certain behaviours within the Post Office".

"It appears the Post Office has significant cultural issues," Patterson's letter says, adding he believes the company "sees itself as the victim".

Back in the inquiry room now, he rejects the counsel's suggestion it was a "petulant" message.

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

Inquiry counsel Julian Blake now asks Paul Patterson if Fujitsu could provide a statement that reassures people about the reliability of the system.

"We need to take a holistic view", he says. "We need to see the whole system that they're engaging with - not just a window which is Horizon - but all the other components."

Blake then moves to questions about whether Fujitsu could provide an independent investigation into Horizon's reliability. "Do you commit to fully cooperating, opening up your books, your warehouses, your data to an expert?"

Patterson says he has no problem with that and that he and Fujitsu would "welcome" an investigation.

Thomas Mackintosh
Reporting from the inquiry

Image source, Post Office Inquiry

Next an email exchange is presented to the inquiry between Horizon IT director at the Post Office Simon Oldnall and a City of London Police investigation.

Next comes an email from a solicitor who intervenes that all legal matters are put through them.

This exchange then "sparks" a number of letters between Paul Patterson and Post Office CEO Nick Read, in which Patterson expresses "concern" over the behaviour of the Post Office.

Read explains the Post Office will not be undertaking its own prosecutions and says it "requests Horizon data for day-to-day business reasons".

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

The exchange between Patterson and inquiry counsel Julian Blake is getting increasingly heated as it turns now to the use of Fujitsu's Horizon IT systems.

Blake asks if the system is "sufficient to produce reliable accounts".

Patterson says repeatedly that he doesn't know.

He says if that question is being raised "I would expect the Post Office to be sitting here as well".

Patterson then adds that it is clear "that there is a level of unreliability" in Horizon.

He says that there "have been bugs errors and defects" throughout the system and that unreliability in Horizon could continue.

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

We're looking now at a YouGov poll of sub-postmasters that showed 49% are dissatisfied with the Horizon IT system.

The vast majority said they have experienced issues with the tech, with reported issues ranging from screens freezing to unexplained or missing transactions and cash shortfalls.

Patterson says that some of the issues described by sub-postmasters are unrelated to Horizon, such as difficulties using pin pads.

He is asked by Blake if the system provided by Fujitsu could be partially to blame for the discrepancies.

Patterson says that "there continues to be bugs, errors and defects", adding that a new system "was meant to be in play."

Accusations need to be investigated and not rely on data points, he says.

Thomas Mackintosh
Reporting from the inquiry

Image source, Post Office Inquiry

Sir Wyn Williams is back on the screens in Aldwych House as Fujitsu boss Paul Patterson takes the oath.

Counsel Julian Blake notes this is Patterson's second appearance at the inquiry, and says he has provided five witness statements which will be published on the inquiry website.

He is going to be asked about two issues - the current state of Horizon and compensation for sub-postmasters.

Patterson lists what he says are three failures by Fujitsu, including the company putting too little focus on the the impacts on sub-postmasters and not providing sufficient support for employees when they flagged up concerns.

Image source, EPA

Making his second appearance at the inquiry today, Fujitsu’s European boss Paul Patterson previously told the hearing that the firm "clearly let society down, and the sub-postmasters down" for its role in the Post Office scandal.

During his last appearance in January, Patterson admitted there were "bugs, errors and defects" with the Horizon software "right from the very start" and also reiterated the firm's apology for its part in the scandal.

He said Fujitsu would not delay the payment of compensation to victims of the Post Office scandal.

More on Patterson’s first appearance at the Post Office inquiry

Former Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch has just wrapped up her testimony.

As we await the day's final witness, the boss of Fujitsu's European arm, Paul Patterson, let's take a look at the key moments from Badenoch's evidence:

• Badenoch was quizzed at length over her dealings with former Post Office chair Henry Staunton
• In her written statement, Badenoch said she was "angry" that Staunton's dismissal was leaked to the press because she wanted to "spare him any public embarrassment"
• A transcript of a call between Badenoch and Staunton was read out, in which Staunton was quoted as describing the leak as "appalling"
• Badenoch told the inquiry she wished more information about Staunton and the Post Office were passed to her, characterising the civil service files on the matter as being too "vanilla"

• She was critical of what she called "the burden of regulation" slowing down the delivery of government services, and in particular the so-called "government machine" delaying financial redress for sub-postmasters

• She also pushed back on assertions that a "revolving door" of ministerial appointments within the Conservative government hampered the government's dealings within the Post Office

Jenna Moon
Reporting from the inquiry

Badenoch is now describing what might need changing at the Post Office in the future.

She says there were "things going wrong on both sides", and that she isn't certain that the delivery of the Horizon programme was done "properly".

Badenoch says that the Post Office will "always lose" funding battles when it is being put up against the NHS and education. "We need to find a different want of making those decisions", she says.

"Should we have the Post Office? Yes. I think it is a cultural institution that's absolutely essential for us to keep".

With that, Badenoch wraps her comments.

Thomas Mackintosh
Reporting from the inquiry

Angela Patrick asks Kemi Badenoch to clarify what she meant earlier by the "government machine", which she blamed for the slowness of the financial redress scheme for sub-postmasters.

Badenoch says: "It is all of the procedures, decisions, consultations, reviews, submissions all of those things which need to be done to evidence decisions.

"There is, in my view nobody who wanted to slow down compensation, there were quite rightly people who wanted to make sure there was value for money.

"But as more and more checks and balances, more and more accountability, more and more rules and regulations, these things do have an impact and tend to slow down processes when you just want to get money out the door."

Patrick asks who is responsible for fixing the so-called "government machine" if it is perceived to be "broken".

Badenoch says it must be acknowledged it is broken, saying this is not an opinion the new Labour government shares.

She says reforms "need looking at", without specifying who or what would be responsible for doing so.