In a shift, Kennedy's tone on Covid jabs was almost conciliatorypublished at 18:53 British Summer Time

18:53 BST

Jim Reed
Senior health reporter

It was interesting to hear an almost conciliatory tone from Kennedy about Covid and vaccination - a topic on which he has previously made statements undermining vaccines' effectiveness in favour of alternative, unproven treatments which has angered many health experts.

But in questioning today, he appeared to agree with a description of Covid shots as "a miracle", at least at the start of the pandemic.

His argument is that President Trump made the correct the decision in late 2020 to roll out coronavirus vaccines because the administration was dealing with a new virus for which there was no natural immunity in the general population.

"But right now we are dealing with completely different circumstances where the virus has mutated, it’s much less dangerous and there is a lot of natural immunity so the calculus is different," he said.

Many mainstream scientists would struggle to disagree with that assessment.

It's worth noting though that in December 2021 Kennedy described Covid vaccines as the "deadliest ever made" - and during the pandemic he had his Instagram account removed for "repeatedly sharing debunked claims" about the virus and immunisation.

Image source, EPA/Shutterstock

It's been a feisty morning as the Senate Finance Committee grilled US Health Secretary Robert F Kennedy Jr. If you're just joining us, here's what you've missed:

• Kennedy called false the claim from former CDC chief Susan Monarez's that he told her to sign off on vaccine recommendations that didn't have a scientific basis, and agreed that she was "lying" in an op-ed published today in the Wall Street Journal
• He said an overhaul of the CDC - from where he has fired several top advisors and employees - was "absolutely necessary", and that the agency "failed miserably during Covid"
• Senator Bernie Sanders asked if he accepted the Covid vaccine was a "miracle", to which RFK eventually conceded it saved "quite a few" lives
• RFK Jr said he was not anti-vax, but "pro-science" - though he has frequently made statements undermining vaccines' effectiveness in favour of alternative, unproven treatments which has angered many health experts
• Kennedy really got into it with several Democrats, accusing Senator Maggie Hassan of "just making stuff up" and calling Ben Ray Luján "ridiculous"
• The Democrats didn't sit back - Mark Warner said his claim that there were going to be no cuts to Medicaid "absurd", while Elizabeth Warren told RFK Jr: "You should resign"
• Some Republicans, including Bill Cassidy, a doctor, challenged Kennedy's policies, saying his constituents are having trouble finding Covid vaccine boosters due to confusion over new guidelines

Committee Chairman Mike Crapo is now giving his final statements. He says there was a lot of partisan questioning today and at times, he has had to step in to keep the hearing orderly.

Crapo asks if Secretary Kennedy wants to make any closing statements, which the secretary declines.

With that, the committee is now adjourned. Stay with us as we bring you a recap of the key moments and more analysis.

The conversation has turned to a gunman who opened fire on a CDC building last month, killing a police officer as he fired 500 rounds at the agency headquarters in Atlanta, Georgia.

Democratic Senator Raphael Warnock asks Kennedy about calling Susan Monarez, the fired CDC director, to a meeting after this incident.

Warnock asks if he reprimand Monarez for comments she made after the shooting, when she said misinformation can be dangerous. Kennedy says he does not recall.

Image source, Reuters

Democratic Senator Ben Ray Luján asks Kennedy about an upcoming study which RFK Jr has said will reveal the causes of autism, and gets into a furious back and forth about who is working on the study.

While asking questions about this person's qualifications to uncover the causes of a complicated condition, Luján accuses RFK Jr of pretending not to know answers when it is convenient.

"You're ridiculous," Kennedy replies.

RFK Jr does not fully answer questions around the role of this individual or why he was trusted to be part of this study, which appears to frustrate Luján.

"Maybe President Trump should have asked you if you were a trustworthy person," Luján says, referring to RFK Jr's comments earlier explaining his state reasoning for firing the CDC head last week.

What do we know about the number of Covid deaths in America?published at 17:53 British Summer Time

17:53 BST

By Shayan Sardarizadeh

When asked by Senator Mark Warner, a Democrat, whether he accepted that "a million Americans died from Covid", Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F Kennedy Jr responded: "I don't know how many died."

After being pressed by Senator Warner, Kennedy said that "I don't think anybody knows that because there was so much data chaos" during President Joe Biden's administration, adding that the previous government's data was "absolutely dismal".

It is worth noting that Donald Trump was president throughout 2020 when the coronavirus pandemic began in the US, when data on Covid was being published.

According to the latest figures from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, external, the US government's public health agency, there have been 1,231,440 Covid deaths in the US, as of August 2025.

The CDC notes that these are provisional figures and include Americans who died “with Covid” and where Covid-19 was "an underlying or contributing cause of death on the death certificate".

Senator Thom Tillis is another Republican who is critical of Kennedy at the hearing today, though he takes a calm tone as he asks him to respond to a list of his questions at another time.

Tillis says some of Kennedy's statements today contradict what he's said at prior hearings, including that he would not make it harder to access vaccines.

Tillis says Kennedy has claimed scientists were lying at the hearing. "I'd just like to see the scientific evidence of that," Tillis says.

Kennedy does not have the chance to respond to most of his questions, which took up all of Tillis's time.

Madeline Halpert
US Reporter

As Kennedy continues to face tough questions from lawmakers, chaos continues at one of the agencies he oversees, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), which sits under the Department of Health and Human Services.

Last week, Kennedy fired the director of the agency, Dr Susan Monarez.

Demetre Daskalakis is one of four top officials who quit in protest of her firing. The director for the CDC's National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, Daskalakis said he had been writing his resignation letter for several months, but the firing of Monarez was one of the last straws for him.

"Someone has to be a scientific leader at CDC," he told the BBC. "We're in a dire strait right now in terms of the future of the agency."

Daskalakis worries about what Kennedy's leadership could mean for Americans' access to vaccines, both because of misinformation about immunisations and conflicting recommendations from the federal government.

"There will be a very significant inequality created in the country where folks who who have ability to pay for health care will be able to get certain vaccines and others won't," he said. "That's going to mean more infections, more hospitalizations, more disability and more death."

Image source, Reuters

Prominent independent Senator Bernie Sanders is now asking questions. He begins by asking Kennedy whether Trump was right in saying that the Covid vaccine was a "miracle" that saved millions of lives.

Kennedy says he has no idea how many lives the vaccine saved, but eventually concedes it "saved quite a few".

Sanders asks which scientific organisations agree with RFK's views on vaccines - Kennedy lists some doctors who advise him, including television personality Dr Oz.

The senator then fires back, saying the organisations who disagree with Kennedy represent hundreds of thousands of doctors and pharmacists.

"So you're telling the American people that the American Medical Association have been corrupted and should not be trusted?" Sanders asks.

He continues - and what about every Republican who has received money from the pharmaceutical industry?

"Everybody is corrupt but you? Is that what we're looking at? I don't think so," Sanders says.

"I don't even know what you're talking about," Kennedy replies.

Changes to Covid vaccine rules puts US in line with other countriespublished at 17:34 British Summer Time

17:34 BST

Jim Reed
Senior health reporter

Robert Kennedy has been pressed about the decision to tighten rules for the Covid vaccine in the United States, and Senator Elizabeth Warren has also just asked for more information.

The US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) recently restricted eligibility of the booster shot this autumn, meaning it will only be routinely offered to all those over 65 years old.

Some younger people will still be able to get it for free, but only if they have an underlying medical condition which makes them particularly vulnerable.

That decision brings the US into line with most other countries, including the UK, where the vaccine is now only available through the pubic health system for certain vulnerable groups - although it can also be purchased privately at high street pharmacists.

Earlier in this hearing, Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, who is a doctor, shared messages from his constituents who say they are having trouble getting needed Covid booster shots because of confusions around the new guidelines.

Image source, Getty Images

Warren is now talking about Kennedy's upcoming health agenda, which includes reviewing Hepatitis B vaccines.

She asks if he will take access away to that and Kennedy again denies he is taking away vaccines.

Warren asks if he told the former CDC director Susan Monarez she had to resign if she refused to to sign off on changes to childhood vaccination schedule?

Kennedy then claims he fired the CDC head because he asked her if she was trustworthy person, and she said no.

For context, in a Wall Street Journal op-ed today, Monarez says Kennedy told her to do things that she said went against science.

"You are putting America's babies' health at risk, America's seniors' health at risk, all Americans health at risk," Warren says. "You should resign."

Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren asks RFK Jr whether he can tell Americans that all adults and children are eligible to get a Covid booster at their local pharmacy.

"Anybody can get the booster," he says, but adds that his agency's new guidelines means "it is not recommended".

Warren replies saying that nor recommending a vaccine has consequences, which makes it harder for people to get at a pharmacy and isn't covered by insurance.

Both Kennedy and Warren raise their voices in the ensuing exchange, doubling down on their points.

Senator Marsha Blackburn, a Republican, asks Kennedy about how he can better arm parents with information on what she calls overprescribed medication of stimulant drugs.

RFK Jr says his agencies are studying the issue and will "force companies to put labels on their products."

He says the study will look into long term impacts of the medication. "Are we actually preventing suicide or are we creating more suicide, and that's something we don't know the answers to."

We are looking into this claim and will bring you more information.

Kennedy is really getting into it with Democratic Senator Maggie Hassan.

"This is crazy talk!" he says when she starts talking about vaccines, and accuses her of "just making stuff up".

"Sometimes when you make an accusation, it's a confession Mr Kennedy," Hassan replies, to which RFK laughs.

"You're making things up to scare people and it's a lie," Kennedy says.

The tone is a familiar one, as Democratic lawmakers have clashed with RFK time and again in this hearing.

His questions from Republicans, apart from Senator Bill Cassidy, who is a doctor, have been far less combative.

The Senate hearing has gone to a short break. Stay with us.

Image source, Getty Images

Warner then pivots, asking how Americans can be healthy with potential cuts to Medicaid, the programme that offers health insurance to low-income and disabled Americans.

"There are no cuts to Medicaid," RFK responds.

"That is absurd," Warner says, continuing that he knows of rural hospitals which are going to close following the passage of Trump's budget bill earlier this year.

Kennedy and Trump claim the so-called "Big Beautiful Bill" will give more money to healthcare.

But the Congressional Budget Office estimates it will result in a gross reduction of $990 billion in federal Medicaid spending over 10 years, and will raise the number of uninsured Americans by 10 million, as explained in a Georgetown University report, external.

Image source, Getty Images

Democratic Senator Mark Warner frequently raises his voice at RFK Jr, including when the health secretary says he does not know how many American died because of Covid-19.

Kennedy says, "I don't think anybody knows", when asked how many died of Covid in the US, going to accuse the Biden administration of "data chaos".

"Mr Chairman, [Kennedy] doesn't know how many Americans died from Covid, he doesn't know if the vaccine helped prevent any deaths, and you are sitting as Secretary as Health and Human Services - how can you be that ignorant?" Warner asks in a raised voice.

According to data from the CDC, external, which Kennedy oversees, 1,231,440 Americans have died of Covid-19 between 11 January 2020 and 23 August 2025.

We are looking into this data and will bring you more detailed information soon.

Senator Cassidy now says he is worried that many people RFK Jr has named to an influential vaccine advisory panel have previously served as paid witnesses in litigation against vaccine companies. He asks Secretary Kennedy if he believes that is a conflict of interest.

Kennedy says it's not a conflict of interest.

"It may be a bias but that bias if disclosed is okay. It is not a financial conflict of interest," he says.

Image source, Reuters

Senator Bill Cassidy, who is also a physician, is now questioning Kennedy. He says he is approaching the questioning as a doctor, not a politician.

The Republican says Trump deserved a Nobel Prize for overseeing Operation Warp Speed - the programme which oversaw the development of the Covid-19 vaccines in 2020, during Trump's first term.

Cassidy asks if Kennedy agrees with this assessment, and the secretary says he does agree, before Cassidy interrupts him to say that doesn't seem to be the case, because Cassidy argues Kennedy has attempted to restrict access to the Covid-19 vaccine.

The questioning turns tense as the two talk over each other.

"Is this a question... or is this a speech you don't want me to answer?" Kennedy responds.

Cassidy ends his questioning by sharing concerns from several of his constituents, including doctors and patients who say they are having trouble accessing Covid-19 booster shots because of conflicting recommendations from health agencies.

"Effectively, we are denying people vaccines," Cassidy says.

"You're wrong," Kennedy responds.

We're watching a heated exchange between Democratic Senator Michael Bennet and Kennedy.

He begins by touching on the June firing of every panel member charged with recommending vaccines to the CDC. Bennet asks whether he has heard claims made by Dr Robert Malone - one of RFK's new appointees to the panel - that the mRNA Covid vaccine could lead to Aids and damage children's hearts and brains.

"Dr Malone is one of the inventors of the mRNA vaccine," Kennedy says.

After some back and forth, Bennett asserts: "That does not answer my question, and that statement (about mRNA vaccines causing Aids) is not true."

Bennet then asks about Kennedy's plan to change the vaccine schedule, and whether that will lead to fewer children having access.

Bennet talks over Kennedy saying, saying "this is not a podcast, it is the American people's health that is on the line here".

The two engage in a heated argument, and Kennedy says Bennet is evading questions around the dangers of the mRNA vaccine.

"I am asking the questions, Mr Kennedy," Bennet says raising his voice.

Senator John Cornyn, a Republican, asks RFK Jr if he believes the Covid-19 pandemic was politicised in the US.

Kennedy says "the whole process was politicised. We were lied to about everything." He says his job now is "eliminate the politics from science."

As a reminder, Donald Trump, who has appointed Kennedy to his current position, was in his first term as president in 2020, when the pandemic began and when the first Covid vaccines were developed.