Sturgeon says Scottish government did everything to suppress Covid-19
Lisa Summers
BBC Scotland Health Correspondent
Nicola
Sturgeon did stray into talking about how the Scottish government responded to
the Covid-19 pandemic, rather than sticking to the remit of this phase of the
inquiry to focus on how prepared Scotland was.
She was being
asked if their planning had been focused on catastrophic consequences of a
pandemic rather than prevention.
She didn’t accept that, saying that “it was
never the case when Covid struck that we accepted it as a given that a
reasonable worse case scenario was going to unfold”.
The former first minister said the Scottish
government did everything they could to suppress it. Also taking an
opportunity to add that this might be a different approach to other parts of
the UK.
Silver Swan, Cyngus and Iris exercises recommendations not completed
Hugh Kerr KC continues his questioning of the former first minister turning to Exercise Silver Swan, Exercise Cygnus and Exercise Iris.
The former first minister says she had a general awareness of these exercises and operations, which rehearsed the government's reponse to various pandemics.
Of the 22 recommendations arising out of Exercise Cygnus, which tested the response to a serious influenza pandemic, 14 had been completed at the start of the Covid pandemic, she explains.
Exercise Iris dealt with the outbreak of MERS and four of 13 recommendations had been completed when the coronavirus pandemic came along, says Ms Sturgeon.
'Political differences shouldn't get in the way'
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
Sturgeon said she had good working relationships with two Labour health secretariesImage caption: Sturgeon said she had good working relationships with two Labour health secretaries
The former first minister returns to swine flu and says she had good working relationships with both UK health secretaries at that time.
She name-checks Alan Johnson and Andy Burnham, who both served as health secretary under Labour PM Gordon Brown.
"Political differences shouldn't get in the way," she says.
Brexit set the overall tone for intergovernmental relationships, Sturgeon adds.
The first minister points out the systems will only work if all parties participate in the right spirit and that is where it often breaks down.
Brexit planning affected resources for other emergency areas - Sturgeon
Coming back form the break, Nicola Sturgeon is
asked about Brexit and how it affected the Scottish government’s plans to prepare
for a pandemic.
“I was very aware of the necessity to divert
resources from other priorities to look at the potential for a no deal Brexit”,
she says.
Sturgeon continues: “We had no choice, had a no
deal Brexit happened, the consequences would have been very severe.
"It stands
to reason, that with so much focus on Brexit, there would be less resource for
other aspects of emergency planning”.
Sturgeon evidence resumes
Former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is back giving evidence after a short break, stay with us for live updates.
The inquiry is still focusing on how prepared the UK was for a pandemic, so we can expect witnesses to be asked about that.
You can watch every moment of the Covid Inquiry by pressing the play icon at the top of this page.
If you can't see it, please refresh your browser or reload the page on the BBC News app.
Analysis
'This is back to the Nicola Sturgeon of old'
Andrew Kerr
Scottish political correspondent
This is back to the Nicola Sturgeon of old – First Minister
Sturgeon.
The former leader has had a torrid time these past few
months since her resignation and the ensuing investigation into SNP finances.
This is not the person holding impromptu press conferences
in casual clothes on their driveway.
The questions at the Covid Inquiry are on more familiar
territory – and we’re back to her more familiar delivery in answering
questions.
Analysing the question, and then detailed, legalistic
answers echoing her lawyer’s training and experience.
The victims’ families are looking on but this will not be
the most challenging session for her in terms of subject matter.
But it’s not fair to say it’s comfortable territory.
Sturgeon has spoken to the BBC in the past about the toll
the pandemic took on her personally – day after day, leading the country during
Covid.
On a professional level it’s perhaps helpful to put some of
this now in perspective as the inquiry continues.
But it must also be a time for introspection as one’s time
in office is examined.
Nicola Sturgeon gives evidence to Covid-19 inquiry
Rex/ShutterstockCopyright: Rex/Shutterstock
Nicola Sturgeon arrives to give evidence to the Covid-19 inquiry in London this morning.Image caption: Nicola Sturgeon arrives to give evidence to the Covid-19 inquiry in London this morning.
If you're just joining us, good morning and welcome to our
continuing live coverage of the UK Covid inquiry.
We’ve already heard from a
key scientist today - Sir Jeremy Farrar.
He was a member of Sage, a scientific group set up to advise the government.
She is expected to appear on more than one occasion, with public hearings set to continue until 2026.
Stay with us for the latest, and remember
you can watch the proceedings by clicking on the play button above.
Analysis
Timing of the Scottish Covid Inquiry
Andrew Kerr
Scottish political correspondent
The families of Scottish victims of Covid are gathering in
Paddington today to hear from the former Scottish first minister.
Perhaps it feels a little odd that the families will be
hearing evidence in person in London - and yet the Scottish Covid Inquiry hasn’t
got off the ground, at least with public hearings.
The UK Inquiry seems so far on with their programme of work.
The Scottish inquiry has been delayed due to the resignation
in October last year of the presiding judge, Lady Poole, for personal reasons.
The new chair, Lord Brailsford, will no doubt be working at
pace with his team.
A public drop-in day is scheduled for Dundee next month.
I’ve been in touch with the Scottish government – they point
out the inquiry is completely independent but say they have been clear they
want the work to be delivered “at speed”.
I asked the Scottish Covid Inquiry when we might see Nicola
Sturgeon and John Swinney, her former deputy, appear before them.
They say witnesses will be called at the “appropriate stages
in its investigations”.
It’s notable that all the main political actors in these
inquiries have demitted office.
Given the timings now, major evidence sessions at both the
UK and Scottish inquiries might come bang in the middle of a general election
campaign.
The inquiry takes a break until 11:30
The former first minister says no responsible government would choose to either supress or deal with the consequences, you have to do both.
With that we have break and we will return at 11:30.
Sturgeon accepts there was a gap in plan for a pandemic
Sturgeon readily accepts there was a gap in the plan for a pandemic, but it did not lack utility.
The former first minister says the question in her mind is did they lack the capabilities for dealing with Covid-19?
There is a real danger of puttting over-emphasis on a plan, she says.
Sturgeon turns to prevention, saying when Covid-19 struck she wanted to supress it to the maximum.
"Could or should we have done more to suppress Covid?" she asks.
Focus on the 2009 swine flu pandemic
Lisa Summers
BBC Scotland Health Correspondent
The
first questions for Nicola Sturgeon were about the 2009 swine flu pandemic. She
was health secretary at the time and many will remember her holding press
conferences at St Andrews house to update the public on the implications.
Thankfully no-one in Scotland died from H191 but there were 1,500 hospitalisations.
Perhaps it was
this experience that led the former first minister deciding to repeat that
communications strategy during the Covid 19 pandemic.
Who can forget
daily press conferences from the same podium to keep the public up to date on
its impact in Scotland?
Sturgeon highlights lessons learned from swine flu pandemic
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
Ms Sturgeon was health secretary during the swine flu pandemicImage caption: Ms Sturgeon was health secretary during the swine flu pandemic
Sturgeon says the 2011 four nations plan for a pandemic was not updated.
She turns to lessons from the swine flu pandemic, saying had the plan been updated it would not have changed the fundamental assumptions and planning at the heart of it.
At least 20% of people, including half of schoolchildren, were infected with swine flu during the first year of the pandemic in 2009, according to data from 19 countries.
It is thought the virus killed 200,000 people around the world.
'There is no plan that will ever completely replicate what happens in reality'
Sturgeon tells the inquiry she has been involved in the response to two pandemics.
She is referring to both Covid-19, when she was first minister, and the H1N1 swine flu pandemic in 2009, when she was Scotland's health minister.
"There is no plan that will ever completely replicate what happens in reality when a pandemic unfortunately confronts us," she says.
What did Sir Jeremy Farrar say?
Jim Reed
Health reporter
As we continue to hear testimony from former first minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, here's a quick recap of Sir Jeremy Farrar's evidence this morning:
He said there was a "degree of complacency" about pandemic planning around the world because the swine flu epidemic of 2009 was not as bad as feared
Asked about scientific advice to government, he said a second group should be set up in the future to provide advice on the impact of a disaster like a pandemic on the economy, education and other parts of society
He said a new form of pandemic flu remains the "biggest risk" to the world but planning should also take into account other novel diseases spread in different ways and with different attributes
He said there was "no consensus" on the effectiveness on facemasks in the UK when Covid hit, whereas in parts of Asia there was broader agreement they should "have a role"
He said it's clear we are now living in a "pandemic age" with more frequent and more complex outbreaks of disease likely in the future
Sturgeon offers her sympathies and condolences to the bereaved
BBCCopyright: BBC
Nicola Sturgeon begins by saying she offers her sympathies and condolences to all those affected by the pandemic.
The former first minister thanks all those who contributed to the national response.
She then says the government she led did the best it could do to take the right decisions but she accepts they were not always right.
Nicola Sturgeon is next to give evidence
Scotland's former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon wiil be sworn in.
Was swine flu threat overblown?
Jim Reed
Health reporter
Sir Jeremy Farrar addresses a subject that some other
witnesses have touched on already in this inquiry.
In 2009 a new form of influenza - H1N1 - or “swine flu” started
spreading around the world.
Farrar says he remembers visiting Mexico at the time and seeing
hospitals full of young people with very severe symptoms as a result.
As it happened the swine flu epidemic was not as bad as many
feared – even though it killed 285,000 people around the world.
Farrar says there was a danger of the "child who cried
wolf" and that may have explained why influenza dropped down risk
registers around the world after that point.
He agrees that there was a degree of complacency after swine flu
because it was less severe than expected.
"Personally I still think influenza remains one of the
greatest risks to humanity," he says..
It’s clear we’re living in a pandemic age - Farrar
Laura Foster
Health reporter at the UK Covid-19 inquiry
Farrar says it’s clear we’re
living in a pandemic age because humans are travelling moving more and further
than we used to do.
Changing ecology and climate
change are displacing populations and we’re building homes and towns in places
where we never lived before.
The fact that people are moving
more makes it easier for viruses to spread.
Farrar uses the situation with
Ebola in West Africa in 2014 as an example:
“What had changed was the social
circumstances in which it happened - not in villages that could be isolated and
quarantined and an epidemic brought under control quickly. But in major capital
cities and across borders, he says.
Farrar giving evidence remotely
Laura Foster
Health reporter at the UK Covid-19 inquiry
BBCCopyright: BBC
Sir Jeremy Farrar is appearing
remotely today and has started his evidence by “reaching out to those who have
lost lives” during the pandemic and “the families who are still affected, those
with long Covid, as well as healthcare workers.”
Long Covid has been mentioned
before at the inquiry but it’s the first time I’ve heard a witness connecting
with long Covid sufferers like this.
It’s not clear why he’s
appearing over the internet but it’s possible that this is linked to his
current role with the World Health Organization.
Today though, he’s appearing in
a personal capacity.
The UK Covid-19 inquiry chair
and legal team will be hoping there will be no internet issues today, after
multiple problems yesterday affected the evidence given by Jeane Freeman.
Jeremy Farrar is giving evidence
Today’s proceedings have now started, you can
watch live by clicking play at the top of this page.
Live Reporting
Edited by Nichola Rutherford
All times stated are UK
Sturgeon says Scottish government did everything to suppress Covid-19
Lisa Summers
BBC Scotland Health Correspondent
Nicola Sturgeon did stray into talking about how the Scottish government responded to the Covid-19 pandemic, rather than sticking to the remit of this phase of the inquiry to focus on how prepared Scotland was.
She was being asked if their planning had been focused on catastrophic consequences of a pandemic rather than prevention.
She didn’t accept that, saying that “it was never the case when Covid struck that we accepted it as a given that a reasonable worse case scenario was going to unfold”.
The former first minister said the Scottish government did everything they could to suppress it. Also taking an opportunity to add that this might be a different approach to other parts of the UK.
Silver Swan, Cyngus and Iris exercises recommendations not completed
Hugh Kerr KC continues his questioning of the former first minister turning to Exercise Silver Swan, Exercise Cygnus and Exercise Iris.
The former first minister says she had a general awareness of these exercises and operations, which rehearsed the government's reponse to various pandemics.
Of the 22 recommendations arising out of Exercise Cygnus, which tested the response to a serious influenza pandemic, 14 had been completed at the start of the Covid pandemic, she explains.
Exercise Iris dealt with the outbreak of MERS and four of 13 recommendations had been completed when the coronavirus pandemic came along, says Ms Sturgeon.
'Political differences shouldn't get in the way'
The former first minister returns to swine flu and says she had good working relationships with both UK health secretaries at that time.
She name-checks Alan Johnson and Andy Burnham, who both served as health secretary under Labour PM Gordon Brown.
"Political differences shouldn't get in the way," she says.
Brexit set the overall tone for intergovernmental relationships, Sturgeon adds.
The first minister points out the systems will only work if all parties participate in the right spirit and that is where it often breaks down.
Brexit planning affected resources for other emergency areas - Sturgeon
Coming back form the break, Nicola Sturgeon is asked about Brexit and how it affected the Scottish government’s plans to prepare for a pandemic.
“I was very aware of the necessity to divert resources from other priorities to look at the potential for a no deal Brexit”, she says.
Sturgeon continues: “We had no choice, had a no deal Brexit happened, the consequences would have been very severe.
"It stands to reason, that with so much focus on Brexit, there would be less resource for other aspects of emergency planning”.
Sturgeon evidence resumes
Former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon is back giving evidence after a short break, stay with us for live updates.
The inquiry is still focusing on how prepared the UK was for a pandemic, so we can expect witnesses to be asked about that.
You can watch every moment of the Covid Inquiry by pressing the play icon at the top of this page.
If you can't see it, please refresh your browser or reload the page on the BBC News app.
'This is back to the Nicola Sturgeon of old'
Andrew Kerr
Scottish political correspondent
This is back to the Nicola Sturgeon of old – First Minister Sturgeon.
The former leader has had a torrid time these past few months since her resignation and the ensuing investigation into SNP finances.
This is not the person holding impromptu press conferences in casual clothes on their driveway.
The questions at the Covid Inquiry are on more familiar territory – and we’re back to her more familiar delivery in answering questions.
Analysing the question, and then detailed, legalistic answers echoing her lawyer’s training and experience.
The victims’ families are looking on but this will not be the most challenging session for her in terms of subject matter.
But it’s not fair to say it’s comfortable territory.
Sturgeon has spoken to the BBC in the past about the toll the pandemic took on her personally – day after day, leading the country during Covid.
On a professional level it’s perhaps helpful to put some of this now in perspective as the inquiry continues.
But it must also be a time for introspection as one’s time in office is examined.
Nicola Sturgeon gives evidence to Covid-19 inquiry
If you're just joining us, good morning and welcome to our continuing live coverage of the UK Covid inquiry.
We’ve already heard from a key scientist today - Sir Jeremy Farrar.
He was a member of Sage, a scientific group set up to advise the government.
We are now in the middle of former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon giving evidence.
She is expected to appear on more than one occasion, with public hearings set to continue until 2026.
Stay with us for the latest, and remember you can watch the proceedings by clicking on the play button above.
Timing of the Scottish Covid Inquiry
Andrew Kerr
Scottish political correspondent
The families of Scottish victims of Covid are gathering in Paddington today to hear from the former Scottish first minister.
Perhaps it feels a little odd that the families will be hearing evidence in person in London - and yet the Scottish Covid Inquiry hasn’t got off the ground, at least with public hearings.
The UK Inquiry seems so far on with their programme of work.
The Scottish inquiry has been delayed due to the resignation in October last year of the presiding judge, Lady Poole, for personal reasons.
The new chair, Lord Brailsford, will no doubt be working at pace with his team.
A public drop-in day is scheduled for Dundee next month.
I’ve been in touch with the Scottish government – they point out the inquiry is completely independent but say they have been clear they want the work to be delivered “at speed”.
I asked the Scottish Covid Inquiry when we might see Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney, her former deputy, appear before them.
They say witnesses will be called at the “appropriate stages in its investigations”.
It’s notable that all the main political actors in these inquiries have demitted office.
Given the timings now, major evidence sessions at both the UK and Scottish inquiries might come bang in the middle of a general election campaign.
The inquiry takes a break until 11:30
The former first minister says no responsible government would choose to either supress or deal with the consequences, you have to do both.
With that we have break and we will return at 11:30.
Sturgeon accepts there was a gap in plan for a pandemic
Sturgeon readily accepts there was a gap in the plan for a pandemic, but it did not lack utility.
The former first minister says the question in her mind is did they lack the capabilities for dealing with Covid-19?
There is a real danger of puttting over-emphasis on a plan, she says.
Sturgeon turns to prevention, saying when Covid-19 struck she wanted to supress it to the maximum.
"Could or should we have done more to suppress Covid?" she asks.
Focus on the 2009 swine flu pandemic
Lisa Summers
BBC Scotland Health Correspondent
The first questions for Nicola Sturgeon were about the 2009 swine flu pandemic. She was health secretary at the time and many will remember her holding press conferences at St Andrews house to update the public on the implications.
Thankfully no-one in Scotland died from H191 but there were 1,500 hospitalisations.
Perhaps it was this experience that led the former first minister deciding to repeat that communications strategy during the Covid 19 pandemic.
Who can forget daily press conferences from the same podium to keep the public up to date on its impact in Scotland?
Sturgeon highlights lessons learned from swine flu pandemic
Sturgeon says the 2011 four nations plan for a pandemic was not updated.
She turns to lessons from the swine flu pandemic, saying had the plan been updated it would not have changed the fundamental assumptions and planning at the heart of it.
At least 20% of people, including half of schoolchildren, were infected with swine flu during the first year of the pandemic in 2009, according to data from 19 countries.
It is thought the virus killed 200,000 people around the world.
'There is no plan that will ever completely replicate what happens in reality'
Sturgeon tells the inquiry she has been involved in the response to two pandemics.
She is referring to both Covid-19, when she was first minister, and the H1N1 swine flu pandemic in 2009, when she was Scotland's health minister.
"There is no plan that will ever completely replicate what happens in reality when a pandemic unfortunately confronts us," she says.
What did Sir Jeremy Farrar say?
Jim Reed
Health reporter
As we continue to hear testimony from former first minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, here's a quick recap of Sir Jeremy Farrar's evidence this morning:
Sturgeon offers her sympathies and condolences to the bereaved
Nicola Sturgeon begins by saying she offers her sympathies and condolences to all those affected by the pandemic.
The former first minister thanks all those who contributed to the national response.
She then says the government she led did the best it could do to take the right decisions but she accepts they were not always right.
Nicola Sturgeon is next to give evidence
Scotland's former First Minister Nicola Sturgeon wiil be sworn in.
Was swine flu threat overblown?
Jim Reed
Health reporter
Sir Jeremy Farrar addresses a subject that some other witnesses have touched on already in this inquiry.
In 2009 a new form of influenza - H1N1 - or “swine flu” started spreading around the world.
Farrar says he remembers visiting Mexico at the time and seeing hospitals full of young people with very severe symptoms as a result.
As it happened the swine flu epidemic was not as bad as many feared – even though it killed 285,000 people around the world.
Farrar says there was a danger of the "child who cried wolf" and that may have explained why influenza dropped down risk registers around the world after that point.
He agrees that there was a degree of complacency after swine flu because it was less severe than expected.
"Personally I still think influenza remains one of the greatest risks to humanity," he says..
It’s clear we’re living in a pandemic age - Farrar
Laura Foster
Health reporter at the UK Covid-19 inquiry
Farrar says it’s clear we’re living in a pandemic age because humans are travelling moving more and further than we used to do.
Changing ecology and climate change are displacing populations and we’re building homes and towns in places where we never lived before.
The fact that people are moving more makes it easier for viruses to spread.
Farrar uses the situation with Ebola in West Africa in 2014 as an example:
“What had changed was the social circumstances in which it happened - not in villages that could be isolated and quarantined and an epidemic brought under control quickly. But in major capital cities and across borders, he says.
Farrar giving evidence remotely
Laura Foster
Health reporter at the UK Covid-19 inquiry
Sir Jeremy Farrar is appearing remotely today and has started his evidence by “reaching out to those who have lost lives” during the pandemic and “the families who are still affected, those with long Covid, as well as healthcare workers.”
Long Covid has been mentioned before at the inquiry but it’s the first time I’ve heard a witness connecting with long Covid sufferers like this.
It’s not clear why he’s appearing over the internet but it’s possible that this is linked to his current role with the World Health Organization.
Today though, he’s appearing in a personal capacity.
The UK Covid-19 inquiry chair and legal team will be hoping there will be no internet issues today, after multiple problems yesterday affected the evidence given by Jeane Freeman.
Jeremy Farrar is giving evidence
Today’s proceedings have now started, you can watch live by clicking play at the top of this page.