We're going to pause our live coverage now, thanks for joining us.
As we've been reporting, Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove was repeatedly asked whether the UK's planning for a no-deal Brexit from 2018 onwards meant some aspects of pandemic preparedness were put on the back burner - a suggestion he consistently rejected.
Other people who gave evidence today included:
Marcus Bell (director of the Government Equality Hub)
Melanie Field (chief strategy and policy officer of the Equality and Human Rights Commission)
Nigel Edwards (chief executive of Nuffield Trust)
Richard Horton (editor in chief of the Lancet, a medical journal, and author)
This page was edited by Marita Moloney, and the writers were Lauren Turner, Antoinette Radford and Jim Reed.
If you want to learn more about what the inquiry is investigating and how will it work, you can read this piece, while an explainer on the pandemic in numbers is available here.
What the inquiry heard earlier today
Ashitha Nagesh
Community affairs correspondent
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Melanie Field, the EHRC's chief strategy and policy officer, said it's vital to have relationships with communities before a crisis hitsImage caption: Melanie Field, the EHRC's chief strategy and policy officer, said it's vital to have relationships with communities before a crisis hits
This morning the inquiry heard from two equalities bosses - Marcus Bell, director of the government’s Equalities Hub, and the Equality and Human Rights Commissions chief strategy and policy officer, Melanie Field.
Official figures show ethnic minorities were significantly more likely to die with Covid-19 in the UK. Because of this, the inquiry has also been looking into whether the government had thought enough about minority groups would be impacted by a pandemic.
Both Bell and Field told the inquiry their organisations weren’t consulted by the government in its preparation for a pandemic.
Bell told the inquiry two departments he was leading at the time - the Race Disparity Unit and the Disability Unit - had “no involvement in pre-pandemic preparedness within government”, and that the same applied to a third department, the Government Equalities Office.
The Race Disparity Unit, Disability Unit and Government Equalities Office were merged in September 2020 to create the Equalities Hub.
Field added that, to her, the government’s consideration of inequalities before the pandemic seemed “inadequate”.
“The lesson for everyone is that, in a crisis - that’s not the best time to try and get everything right,” she said.
“You need to have those systems and mechanisms in place, and have relationships and understanding of those communities, before you’re trying to respond in an emergency situation.”
WATCH: Moment Gove's phone interrupts session
Michael Gove looked confused to hear another voice addressing him by name while he was giving evidence earlier - until he realised it was coming from his own phone.
Video content
Video caption: Watch the moment Michael Gove's phone interrupts his evidenceWatch the moment Michael Gove's phone interrupts his evidence
What did Michael Gove say?
Jim Reed
Health reporter
That's the end of Michael Gove's testimony to the first phase of the Covid Inquiry.
He is almost certain to be called back to give evidence in the autumn when he will be asked about decisions made after Covid struck the UK in 2020.
In this session though, he was asked repeatedly about Brexit and whether the UK's planning for a so-called no-deal Brexit from 2018 onwards meant some aspects of pandemic planning were put on the back burner.
It was clear the levelling up secretary had absolutely no time for that suggestion.
In fact, he said, all that Brexit planning made parts of government "more match fit" when Covid did arrive, for example by increasing the number of civil servants and boosting the skills of those already in a job.
"The preparation for EU exit in and of itself was some of the best preparation that could have been undergone for any future crisis," he added.
Gove said the UK, along with other western nations, was unprepared for Covid because it was too focused on planning for a new form of pandemic influenza instead.
Although he said the Cabinet Office did "flex rapidly" and adapt when it needed to in the Spring of 2020.
Finally he spoke about the argument put forward by former health secretary Matt Hancock in his evidence that UK planning should have focused more on preventing Covid arriving and taking hold in the first place.
He called this idea the "Hancock doctrine" and said he had a "lot of sympathy" with that argument.
The Covid-19 Inquiry heard from Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove today, who was pressed about the impact Brexit planning had on the government's response to the pandemic.
Gove told the inquiry that "because there was a deadline, we knew that with a ticking clock at our back, we needed to proceed at pace".
Video content
Video caption: Michael Gove says the "ticking clock" of Brexit helped government work at a faster pace.Michael Gove says the "ticking clock" of Brexit helped government work at a faster pace.
Session ends for the day
The Covid-19 Inquiry has wrapped up for today.
It was a busy day with evidence from Michael Gove, Marcus Bell, Melanie Field, Nigel Edwards and Richard Horton.
We'll have some analysis on the key evidence from today's session soon, so stay with us.
Positives and negatives of closing borders, says Gove
Now the lawyer representing Covid Bereaved Families for Justice focuses his questions on weaknesses in pandemic planning, specifically when it comes to borders.
Gove says: "It was almost impossible to so control our borders as to prevent the disease spreading."
Instead, the impetus was on the "mitigation of the disease once it was here", he adds.
He says there are examples of countries who closed their borders - like New Zealand - and that the inquiry will looks at the strengths and weaknesses were of doing this.
Closing borders can have economic and social costs even as they can also be powerful tools in slowing the disease, Gove says.
No deal planning helped shore up medicines - Gove
Pete Weatherby KC next asks Gove if he's listened to Matt Hancock's evidence to the Covid-19 Inquiry, which was that the UK came within hours of running out of medication at the peak of the pandemic, and the no-deal Brexit preparation helped shore up medication.
He says that evidence from Hancock "certainly chimes with my recollection".
The lawyer then points out that prior to Brexit, planning had not identified challenges with securing medical supplies.
Gove says "both the preparation for a no-deal Brexit and the pandemic itself reinforced the fact that not just with medicines... the nature of our supply chains in a globalised world... were fragile."
Gove asked if weaknesses were identified in no-deal Brexit planning
Next, Gove is facing questions from Pete Weatherby KC, representing the Covid Bereaved Families for Justice UK group.
He talks about the planning for a no-deal Brexit which Gove earlier told the inquiry helped with readiness for the pandemic - asking if it's right that a number of weaknesses were identified as part of this.
Gove replies: "I think preparation for any significant challenge of that kind will stress-test systems and expose some weaknesses within those systems - government is a system of continuous improvement."
He adds that some areas for improvement would have been identified at the time.
Will the government reflect on what the inquiry has heard?
Video content
Video caption: Michael Gove says a UK-wide crisis needs a response "at speed"Michael Gove says a UK-wide crisis needs a response "at speed"
Gove says he will reflect on evidence presented before the Covid-19 inquiry to ensure its resilience framework is stronger for future pandemics.
"Absolutely," he says.
He adds that "it's important that the devolved responsibilities of the devolved administrations are respected", but that everyone can learn from good practice in different parts of the UK.
He says that sometimes there is a case for the UK government thinking UK-wide, especially when responding with speed to public health problems.
'Regrettable' no sitting government in NI - Gove
Gove tells the inquiry it is important to regularly have talks with the devolved governments of other nations - and is then asked about the situation in Northern Ireland, where there has been a breakdown in power-sharing.
Asked how he then keeps contact with Northern Ireland, in the absence of a sitting government, he says it is the Northern Ireland Civil Service and their leads in government departments who are the main points of contact.
He adds: "Ultimately, it's regrettable we don't have a sitting government there at the moment."
There is also a bigger role for the Northern Ireland Office - "not direct rule of course" but making sure there is liaison between the government in Westminster and the civil service in Northern Ireland, he says.
Blackwell asks about relationship between Whitehall and Scotland
Gove is asked about a comment from the deputy first minister to the Scottish government about the relationship between the two administrations being "pretty poor".
Gove says "there was effective cooperation" the majority of the time during the pandemic.
But he goes on to say: "The Scottish government and those leading it, because of that divergent political view...They sometimes have an incentive to accentuate the negative in the relationship.
"The overall political aim of the SNP is to present the United Kingdom as a dysfunctional state".
Gove's phone goes off during inquiry
There was a confusing moment when another voice was heard in the inquiry room while Gove was giving evidence - which turned out to be coming from his phone, inside his jacket pocket.
He initially looked perplexed before realising the source of the interruption.
"I think that's my voice, unfortunately," said Kate Blackwell KC, laughing, as he retrieved it and switched off what appeared to be a recording of the earlier part of the session.
"So sorry, terrible moment," said Gove with a smile as he set the phone down in front of him and continued with his evidence.
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
'Discharge of patients into adult social care an object of regret' - Gove
After a brief break, Gove is once again been asked whether Brexit impacted
the UK’s response to Covid-19.
Kate Blackwell KC asks on behalf of the Scottish Covid Bereaved if the civil service diverted their attention from adult social care, to a no deal EU exit.
Gove says he’s “not sure” he accepts that it had a detrimental
affect. He says he doesn't know what would have been different to the approach taken to adult social care that could have been anticipated before the pandemic.
But, he says, "the way in which the
discharge of patients from NHS beds into adult social care was handled is an
object of regret and concern".
He says the spread of Covid-19 through
the use of agency staff who worked across multiple care homes should also be
reflected on.
Gove says obesity should be a public health focus
Gove is asked about listening to and consulting with groups who are most
vulnerable to a pandemic.
He says it’s “absolutely” important that the government
listens to advocacy groups on behalf of vulnerable people, but also says he wants society to support people as much as possible.
He specifically mentions obesity as a public health issue.
“One of the greatest vulnerabilities…one of the likeliest comorbidities
was for those people who were living with obesity. And I think that a broader conversation
about public health and the diet that we have and the pressure that creates is
one that not one single group has a monopoly on," he says.
He says it should be a public health focus for everyone across the UK.
How ready do communities need to be?
Kate Blackwell KC turns to community engagement - asking if it's crucial that in preparing for a pandemic, that there's significant community engagement.
"Yes, and even before," says Gove.
He says there are elements of preparedness for certain threats and hazards that can't be shared with everyone, like when there are "states and non-state actors who might wish us harm", for example with a cyber attack.
But the broader conversation about the "impact certain threats and hazards can have and how we can build resilience within society is a good thing", he says.
"As we saw in our media and families and workplaces, during and after the pandemic there has been a lively and informed conversation about the merits and demerits of lockdown," he adds.
Gove says the government cannot mandate such conversations but can facilitate them - suggesting there could be such conversations about how we can be more resilient about threats, be they "from climate change or some of the threats to which I've alluded".
Gove asked who should deal with crisis planning
Gove is asked about evidence given at the inquiry yesterday by Mark
Lloyd, chief executive of the LGA, about the level of assurance provided to people across the UK in relation to pandemic
preparedness.
Lloyd suggested involving local democratic leaders to help provide better assurance in a crisis, and Gove is asked
whether he thinks this is a good idea or if a central assurance body would be
better.
“I think both," he says.
He says his involvement in the Grenfell Tower tragedy and working for DEFRA in the aftermath of the Salisbury Novichok poisoning were times he witnessed local government step up, but also saw local governments require more assistance from central government.
“I used to live very close to where the fire occurred and in
the days afterwards I spent some time just walking around the scene… it struck
me then that essentially – and no individual is to blame – that that individual
London Borough was simply not up to dealing with that tragedy.”
Gove suggests ministers need training in resilience
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Gove says he agrees ministers working in resilience would benefit from training and outlines what it should involve.
The first, he says, is learning from "those with experience in handling crises" - ministers and former ministers.
Undertaking regular exercises involving military planners is also suggested - "something as close to an emergency as possible that will enable ministers to learn better".
Next he says that as Sir Oliver Letwin previously said, politicians are amateurs - "when engaging with experts, what we bring is not deep subject expertise but the capacity to ask the daft laddy question".
"Sometimes, it is only when someone asks that question that we learn the emperor has no clothes or the pandemic preparedness plan has a huge hole in the middle."
Analysis
Inquiry will need to weigh up impact of Brexit planning
Jim Reed
Health reporter
One of the recurring themes of this first module of the inquiry is Brexit - and whether planning for a so-called no-deal Brexit from 2018 onwards damaged our ability to also plan for a pandemic.
Michael Gove completely refutes this.
He repeats a line used by deputy PM Oliver Dowden in his evidence that planning for leaving the EU without a trade agreement left the UK "match fit" when Covid struck.
He says more civil servants were hired and staff were better trained and picked up more "general skills" which could be easily transferred to work on the pandemic response when the time came.
In earlier evidence the inquiry has heard that a number of "workstreams" put in place after a key pandemic training exercise in 2016 were put on hold as staff were shifted over to work on no-deal Brexit planning.
That included work to better prepare the care sector for a future pandemic.
The inquiry will have to weigh up all this evidence and decide just how much impact that no-deal planning really did have on our ability to respond to Covid in early 2020.
National resilience institute good idea, but not enough - Gove
Gove is asked whether a national resilience institute would
help with preparedness for future pandemics.
He says he thinks it’s a “very good idea”, but more needs to
be done.
“I think it is necessary but not sufficient," he says.
“More needs to be done” he says.
This includes: reviewing
structures that are currently in place, implementing a lead minister to oversee resilience, elevating the role of the deputy National Security Advisor, and strengthening the role of the Civil Contingencies Secretariat.
He adds “my own view is the relevant minister
responsible for resilience should be the lead minister in the Cabinet Office”.
Live Reporting
Edited by Marita Moloney
All times stated are UK
- Marcus Bell (director of the Government Equality Hub)
- Melanie Field (chief strategy and policy officer of the Equality and Human Rights Commission)
- Nigel Edwards (chief executive of Nuffield Trust)
- Richard Horton (editor in chief of the Lancet, a medical journal, and author)
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry Melanie Field, the EHRC's chief strategy and policy officer, said it's vital to have relationships with communities before a crisis hitsImage caption: Melanie Field, the EHRC's chief strategy and policy officer, said it's vital to have relationships with communities before a crisis hits Video caption: Watch the moment Michael Gove's phone interrupts his evidenceWatch the moment Michael Gove's phone interrupts his evidence 
Video caption: Michael Gove says the "ticking clock" of Brexit helped government work at a faster pace.Michael Gove says the "ticking clock" of Brexit helped government work at a faster pace. Video caption: Michael Gove says a UK-wide crisis needs a response "at speed"Michael Gove says a UK-wide crisis needs a response "at speed" 
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry 
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry 
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry Analysis
Latest PostGoodbye for now
We're going to pause our live coverage now, thanks for joining us.
As we've been reporting, Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove was repeatedly asked whether the UK's planning for a no-deal Brexit from 2018 onwards meant some aspects of pandemic preparedness were put on the back burner - a suggestion he consistently rejected.
Other people who gave evidence today included:
This page was edited by Marita Moloney, and the writers were Lauren Turner, Antoinette Radford and Jim Reed.
If you want to learn more about what the inquiry is investigating and how will it work, you can read this piece, while an explainer on the pandemic in numbers is available here.
What the inquiry heard earlier today
Ashitha Nagesh
Community affairs correspondent
This morning the inquiry heard from two equalities bosses - Marcus Bell, director of the government’s Equalities Hub, and the Equality and Human Rights Commissions chief strategy and policy officer, Melanie Field.
Official figures show ethnic minorities were significantly more likely to die with Covid-19 in the UK. Because of this, the inquiry has also been looking into whether the government had thought enough about minority groups would be impacted by a pandemic.
Both Bell and Field told the inquiry their organisations weren’t consulted by the government in its preparation for a pandemic.
Bell told the inquiry two departments he was leading at the time - the Race Disparity Unit and the Disability Unit - had “no involvement in pre-pandemic preparedness within government”, and that the same applied to a third department, the Government Equalities Office.
The Race Disparity Unit, Disability Unit and Government Equalities Office were merged in September 2020 to create the Equalities Hub.
Field added that, to her, the government’s consideration of inequalities before the pandemic seemed “inadequate”.
“The lesson for everyone is that, in a crisis - that’s not the best time to try and get everything right,” she said.
“You need to have those systems and mechanisms in place, and have relationships and understanding of those communities, before you’re trying to respond in an emergency situation.”
WATCH: Moment Gove's phone interrupts session
Michael Gove looked confused to hear another voice addressing him by name while he was giving evidence earlier - until he realised it was coming from his own phone.
Video content
What did Michael Gove say?
Jim Reed
Health reporter
That's the end of Michael Gove's testimony to the first phase of the Covid Inquiry.
He is almost certain to be called back to give evidence in the autumn when he will be asked about decisions made after Covid struck the UK in 2020.
In this session though, he was asked repeatedly about Brexit and whether the UK's planning for a so-called no-deal Brexit from 2018 onwards meant some aspects of pandemic planning were put on the back burner.
It was clear the levelling up secretary had absolutely no time for that suggestion.
In fact, he said, all that Brexit planning made parts of government "more match fit" when Covid did arrive, for example by increasing the number of civil servants and boosting the skills of those already in a job.
"The preparation for EU exit in and of itself was some of the best preparation that could have been undergone for any future crisis," he added.
Gove said the UK, along with other western nations, was unprepared for Covid because it was too focused on planning for a new form of pandemic influenza instead.
Although he said the Cabinet Office did "flex rapidly" and adapt when it needed to in the Spring of 2020.
Finally he spoke about the argument put forward by former health secretary Matt Hancock in his evidence that UK planning should have focused more on preventing Covid arriving and taking hold in the first place.
He called this idea the "Hancock doctrine" and said he had a "lot of sympathy" with that argument.
WATCH: Gove says Brexit planning helped Covid response
The Covid-19 Inquiry heard from Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove today, who was pressed about the impact Brexit planning had on the government's response to the pandemic.
Gove told the inquiry that "because there was a deadline, we knew that with a ticking clock at our back, we needed to proceed at pace".
Video content
Session ends for the day
The Covid-19 Inquiry has wrapped up for today.
It was a busy day with evidence from Michael Gove, Marcus Bell, Melanie Field, Nigel Edwards and Richard Horton.
We'll have some analysis on the key evidence from today's session soon, so stay with us.
Positives and negatives of closing borders, says Gove
Now the lawyer representing Covid Bereaved Families for Justice focuses his questions on weaknesses in pandemic planning, specifically when it comes to borders.
Gove says: "It was almost impossible to so control our borders as to prevent the disease spreading."
Instead, the impetus was on the "mitigation of the disease once it was here", he adds.
He says there are examples of countries who closed their borders - like New Zealand - and that the inquiry will looks at the strengths and weaknesses were of doing this.
Closing borders can have economic and social costs even as they can also be powerful tools in slowing the disease, Gove says.
No deal planning helped shore up medicines - Gove
Pete Weatherby KC next asks Gove if he's listened to Matt Hancock's evidence to the Covid-19 Inquiry, which was that the UK came within hours of running out of medication at the peak of the pandemic, and the no-deal Brexit preparation helped shore up medication.
He says that evidence from Hancock "certainly chimes with my recollection".
The lawyer then points out that prior to Brexit, planning had not identified challenges with securing medical supplies.
Gove says "both the preparation for a no-deal Brexit and the pandemic itself reinforced the fact that not just with medicines... the nature of our supply chains in a globalised world... were fragile."
Gove asked if weaknesses were identified in no-deal Brexit planning
Next, Gove is facing questions from Pete Weatherby KC, representing the Covid Bereaved Families for Justice UK group.
He talks about the planning for a no-deal Brexit which Gove earlier told the inquiry helped with readiness for the pandemic - asking if it's right that a number of weaknesses were identified as part of this.
Gove replies: "I think preparation for any significant challenge of that kind will stress-test systems and expose some weaknesses within those systems - government is a system of continuous improvement."
He adds that some areas for improvement would have been identified at the time.
Will the government reflect on what the inquiry has heard?
Video content
Gove says he will reflect on evidence presented before the Covid-19 inquiry to ensure its resilience framework is stronger for future pandemics.
"Absolutely," he says.
He adds that "it's important that the devolved responsibilities of the devolved administrations are respected", but that everyone can learn from good practice in different parts of the UK.
He says that sometimes there is a case for the UK government thinking UK-wide, especially when responding with speed to public health problems.
'Regrettable' no sitting government in NI - Gove
Gove tells the inquiry it is important to regularly have talks with the devolved governments of other nations - and is then asked about the situation in Northern Ireland, where there has been a breakdown in power-sharing.
Asked how he then keeps contact with Northern Ireland, in the absence of a sitting government, he says it is the Northern Ireland Civil Service and their leads in government departments who are the main points of contact.
He adds: "Ultimately, it's regrettable we don't have a sitting government there at the moment."
There is also a bigger role for the Northern Ireland Office - "not direct rule of course" but making sure there is liaison between the government in Westminster and the civil service in Northern Ireland, he says.
Blackwell asks about relationship between Whitehall and Scotland
Gove is asked about a comment from the deputy first minister to the Scottish government about the relationship between the two administrations being "pretty poor".
Gove says "there was effective cooperation" the majority of the time during the pandemic.
But he goes on to say: "The Scottish government and those leading it, because of that divergent political view...They sometimes have an incentive to accentuate the negative in the relationship.
"The overall political aim of the SNP is to present the United Kingdom as a dysfunctional state".
Gove's phone goes off during inquiry
There was a confusing moment when another voice was heard in the inquiry room while Gove was giving evidence - which turned out to be coming from his phone, inside his jacket pocket.
He initially looked perplexed before realising the source of the interruption.
"I think that's my voice, unfortunately," said Kate Blackwell KC, laughing, as he retrieved it and switched off what appeared to be a recording of the earlier part of the session.
"So sorry, terrible moment," said Gove with a smile as he set the phone down in front of him and continued with his evidence.
'Discharge of patients into adult social care an object of regret' - Gove
After a brief break, Gove is once again been asked whether Brexit impacted the UK’s response to Covid-19.
Kate Blackwell KC asks on behalf of the Scottish Covid Bereaved if the civil service diverted their attention from adult social care, to a no deal EU exit.
Gove says he’s “not sure” he accepts that it had a detrimental affect. He says he doesn't know what would have been different to the approach taken to adult social care that could have been anticipated before the pandemic.
But, he says, "the way in which the discharge of patients from NHS beds into adult social care was handled is an object of regret and concern".
He says the spread of Covid-19 through the use of agency staff who worked across multiple care homes should also be reflected on.
Gove says obesity should be a public health focus
Gove is asked about listening to and consulting with groups who are most vulnerable to a pandemic.
He says it’s “absolutely” important that the government listens to advocacy groups on behalf of vulnerable people, but also says he wants society to support people as much as possible.
He specifically mentions obesity as a public health issue.
“One of the greatest vulnerabilities…one of the likeliest comorbidities was for those people who were living with obesity. And I think that a broader conversation about public health and the diet that we have and the pressure that creates is one that not one single group has a monopoly on," he says.
He says it should be a public health focus for everyone across the UK.
How ready do communities need to be?
Kate Blackwell KC turns to community engagement - asking if it's crucial that in preparing for a pandemic, that there's significant community engagement.
"Yes, and even before," says Gove.
He says there are elements of preparedness for certain threats and hazards that can't be shared with everyone, like when there are "states and non-state actors who might wish us harm", for example with a cyber attack.
But the broader conversation about the "impact certain threats and hazards can have and how we can build resilience within society is a good thing", he says.
"As we saw in our media and families and workplaces, during and after the pandemic there has been a lively and informed conversation about the merits and demerits of lockdown," he adds.
Gove says the government cannot mandate such conversations but can facilitate them - suggesting there could be such conversations about how we can be more resilient about threats, be they "from climate change or some of the threats to which I've alluded".
Gove asked who should deal with crisis planning
Gove is asked about evidence given at the inquiry yesterday by Mark Lloyd, chief executive of the LGA, about the level of assurance provided to people across the UK in relation to pandemic preparedness.
Lloyd suggested involving local democratic leaders to help provide better assurance in a crisis, and Gove is asked whether he thinks this is a good idea or if a central assurance body would be better.
“I think both," he says.
He says his involvement in the Grenfell Tower tragedy and working for DEFRA in the aftermath of the Salisbury Novichok poisoning were times he witnessed local government step up, but also saw local governments require more assistance from central government.
“I used to live very close to where the fire occurred and in the days afterwards I spent some time just walking around the scene… it struck me then that essentially – and no individual is to blame – that that individual London Borough was simply not up to dealing with that tragedy.”
Gove suggests ministers need training in resilience
Gove says he agrees ministers working in resilience would benefit from training and outlines what it should involve.
The first, he says, is learning from "those with experience in handling crises" - ministers and former ministers.
Undertaking regular exercises involving military planners is also suggested - "something as close to an emergency as possible that will enable ministers to learn better".
Next he says that as Sir Oliver Letwin previously said, politicians are amateurs - "when engaging with experts, what we bring is not deep subject expertise but the capacity to ask the daft laddy question".
"Sometimes, it is only when someone asks that question that we learn the emperor has no clothes or the pandemic preparedness plan has a huge hole in the middle."
Inquiry will need to weigh up impact of Brexit planning
Jim Reed
Health reporter
One of the recurring themes of this first module of the inquiry is Brexit - and whether planning for a so-called no-deal Brexit from 2018 onwards damaged our ability to also plan for a pandemic.
Michael Gove completely refutes this.
He repeats a line used by deputy PM Oliver Dowden in his evidence that planning for leaving the EU without a trade agreement left the UK "match fit" when Covid struck.
He says more civil servants were hired and staff were better trained and picked up more "general skills" which could be easily transferred to work on the pandemic response when the time came.
In earlier evidence the inquiry has heard that a number of "workstreams" put in place after a key pandemic training exercise in 2016 were put on hold as staff were shifted over to work on no-deal Brexit planning.
That included work to better prepare the care sector for a future pandemic.
The inquiry will have to weigh up all this evidence and decide just how much impact that no-deal planning really did have on our ability to respond to Covid in early 2020.
National resilience institute good idea, but not enough - Gove
Gove is asked whether a national resilience institute would help with preparedness for future pandemics.
He says he thinks it’s a “very good idea”, but more needs to be done.
“I think it is necessary but not sufficient," he says.
“More needs to be done” he says.
This includes: reviewing structures that are currently in place, implementing a lead minister to oversee resilience, elevating the role of the deputy National Security Advisor, and strengthening the role of the Civil Contingencies Secretariat.
He adds “my own view is the relevant minister responsible for resilience should be the lead minister in the Cabinet Office”.