Video caption: The FM says 'granular planning' is only possible when the nature of a pandemic is apparentThe FM says 'granular planning' is only possible when the nature of a pandemic is apparent
We've finished hearing today's evidence from the Covid inquiry. Here's a reminder of what was said:
Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford said that resources were taken away from implementing pandemic plans in 2018 because of the looming threat of a no-deal Brexit
Drakeford said the government had some failings in its plans for pandemic preparedness in years before the Covid outbreak
Wales was "not prepared enough" to deal with excess deaths from a pandemic, ex-health minister Vaughan Gething told the inquiry
He also said plans that existed for pandemic influenza would've left Wales vulnerable and PPE stockpiles were "woefully inadequate"
Gething admitted he may have "sped up" pandemic preparedness if he'd put more time into it
The inquiry also heard from Dr Quentin Sandifer of Public Health Wales and former chief executive of the Welsh NHS Dr Andrew Goodall, who said a 2011 pandemic flu strategy "had a number of flaws"
WATCH: Cabinet meeting devoted to danger of no-deal Brexit - Drakeford
Video content
Video caption: The FM says his first cabinet meeting in 2018 focused on BrexitThe FM says his first cabinet meeting in 2018 focused on Brexit
As we reported earlier, Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford was asked about civil contingency structures before the pandemic.
Drakeford says his first Cabinet meeting when he became FM in 2018 was almost entirely devoted to preparations for leaving the EU without a deal.
'Difficult to plan for unequal impact of pandemic'
In the final topic of today's evidence, Keith said "very little attention" was given to how a pandemic would affect sections of the community disproportionately, and how the impact on vulnerable and marginalised groups could be mitigated.
Drakeford said the Welsh government was aware there would be an unequal impact of a pandemic, and that it was "difficult to anticipate in advance of that pandemic where those inequalities would most fall".
He said the "granular planning" of how to mitigate that would be dealt with when the nature of the pandemic became "more apparent".
Drakeford finishes giving evidence
Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford has now concluded his evidence to the UK Covid-19 inquiry.
Stay with us as we bring you more of what he said and key lines from today's hearing.
'Government had some failings in pandemic preparedness'
Keith asks Drakeford, given the evidence we've heard so far, if there were "significant failings" in pandemic preparedness plans in the eight years before the Covid outbreak.
Drakeford admits there were failings and the Welsh government wasn't as prepared as it could have been.
But he also says the counsel's assessment is "unduly bleak".
Resources diverted amid threat of no-deal Brexit
Hugo Keith KC is questioning Drakeford about the recommendations in the aftermath of Exercise Cygnus in 2016 - a cross-government pandemic exercise.
Keith asks Drakeford about the Welsh Pandemic Flu Preparedness Group, which was set up to implement plans after Cygnus.
Although there's some disagreement about whether the group last met in January or October 2018, when questioned, Drakeford says it is "without doubt" recommendations were never fully implemented.
He says at the time, resources were being diverted to focus on the "dangers" of a no-deal Brexit.
There's another short break before we finish off hearing the first minister's evidence.
'Sensible to rely on expertise and capacity of UK government'
Drakeford tells inquiry the Welsh government didn't feel the need to create a Wales-specific risk assessment document after the transfer of powers of civil contingencies in 2018.
“I’m not sure we would have felt there was a huge advantage to be gained from deducing Welsh specific risks when the UK government process looked like one that had the expertise to deliver it."
He says for "certain purposes" it is "sensible from a Welsh perspective to rely on the expertise and capacity that the UK government has".
He adds that creating a Welsh-intermediate tier for a national risk register "did not justify the resources".
The first minister is asked about the principle that all risk is local, which echoes some of the main criticism of the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group.
They say there were Wales-specific vulnerabilities which should have been addressed.
Cabinet meeting almost entirely devoted to Brexit - Drakeford
Crown CopyrightCopyright: Crown Copyright
Mark Drakeford said it was a "matter of disappointment" that a review of civil contingency structures was initiated in 2018 but did not take place until this year.
Some powers over the issue had been transferred to Cardiff in 2018, although without an increase in funding.
However, Drakeford says his first Cabinet meeting was also focused on one thing - Brexit.
He tells the inquiry: “Four days after becoming first minister, almost the whole of our Cabinet meeting was devoted to preparations for leaving the EU without a deal.
“The system was already turning its sights very firmly to a danger that was right in front of you.”
Analysis
Drakeford being tested on involvement in Covid planning
Hywel Griffith
Wales Correspondent
With a reputation for caution and deliberation, Mark
Drakeford is known in political circles for wanting to read every piece of
advice available before reaching a decision.
That means that his grasp of pandemic preparedness and the
choices he faced when the Covid outbreak occurred in 2020 should have been strong.
What’s being tested this afternoon is how involved he was
with the planning process and how aware he was of the deficiencies.
In his evidence, Vaughan Gething made a point of saying that
there were several planning documents he hadn’t read during his time as health
minister.
His view is that a minister’s time should be used carefully
and that they should be able to rely on the judgement of those who brief them.
Civil contingency groups 'were not particularly complex'
Much of the start of Drakeford's evidence is looking at the structure of bodies that deal with civil contingencies.
A report from 2012 suggested that there were too many civil contingency groups, the inquiry hears.
But Drakeford says from the perspective of a minister, the system did "not look particularly complex".
Once structures move into professional roles and
perspectives, “it does sometimes enter a rather arcane world”.
Ministers wanted to see advice coming to desk "has been tested as the necessary expertise", Drakeford explains, and he didn’t feel
complexity was a barrier to that.
Drakeford begins giving evidence
That concludes former Health Minister Vaughan Gething's evidence. We're now hearing from Wales' First Minister Mark Drakeford.
He's being questioned by Hugo Keith KC.
Drakeford has been first minister since 2018 and also served as health minister in the Welsh government between 2013 and 2016.
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Plans to deal with excess deaths 'put families in pain'
Former Health Minister Vaughan Gething says a lack preparedness
to deal with excess deaths led to additional pain for bereaved families.
Appearing to become emotional as he spoke, and under questioning
for the counsel for the Welsh bereaved families group, he said: “One of the
things I found most difficult was the dignity in death and knowing what a bad
death is, and understanding that has a real impact on people left behind.
“When we started and had to consider the measures we might
have to take immediately for mortuary capacity and crematoria."
He said there were plans that were discussed with partners “about
how to increase crematory capacity. But actually all of this work was not fully
completed”.
“That meant that when Covid came we were not as prepared as
we could and should have been, and that does… lead to additional pain for
bereaved families,” he said, adding he accepted responsibility.
How long did PPE stockpiles last?
Vaughan Gething referenced PPE stockpiles, which he called "woefully inadequate".
This is how the numbers broke down at the start of the pandemic.
BBCCopyright: BBC
Pandemic flu plan 'not complete'
Vaughan Gething appeared to agree, when it was put to him by
counsel, that Wales’ PPE stockpile had been “woefully inadequate” to deal with
the pandemic being planned for.
“We would go in through PPE at a much faster rate than our
planning assumptions assumed we would, so actually, we found that our stockpile
that should have lasted for a whole wave."
He then added: “I think it's fair to say that the plan for
an influenza pandemic would still have had challenge.
“I hesitate to say it was inadequate because it's such a
loaded term but certainly with all the evidence that I've seen… the planning
for an influenza pandemic was not complete, and we would have had vulnerabilities
if it had been an influenza pandemic.”
Minister 'could have sped preparedness up'
The former Welsh health minister has said he could've "sped up" preparedness for a pandemic if he had put more time into it.
Vaughan Gething also admitted that he had not read the report that resulted from the Cygnus Exercise into preparing for pandemic flu.
The counsel to the inquiry, Kate Blackwell, read out a part of the conclusions that found the UK's plans, policies and capabilities were not sufficent to cope with the severe demands of an extreme pandemic.
He said if he had read it he would "have asked extra questions about what was taking place".
Advisers had fed back that there was a need for improvements, and he said he had recieved briefings.
But he added: "Looking back, I think it is fair to say that if I had put more ministerial time into this, then I may well have sped up preparedness."
Earlier, he said dealing with the here and now and considering potential future problems was a “difficult balance to strike".
Speaking of the 2018-2019 Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board maternity services crisis meant “other things had to move... including longer term priorities".
Strained relations with UK government affected plans
Strained ministerial relations between the Welsh and UK
governments hampered pandemic planning, Vaughan Gething says.
“I think they would have been better if we had had some form
of ministerial engagement beyond the Cygnus Exercise,” he said.
“We would request meetings. We wrote on a number of issues”,
he said. “We did not get a response.”
He said there should “always be some room for pragmatism”.
“You
don’t have to like the person at the other side of the desk. We should, from time-to-time meet."
Wales 'needs root and branch review'
A group representing bereaved families in Wales spoke outside the inquiry during the break.
Anna-Louise Marsh-Rees, from Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru, said: "Following this morning's session, all I can say is that we certainly do things differently in Wales.
"The UK government kept influenza pandemic on the top right of their risk register. However, Wales removed it from theirs and they put it into a different risk register.
"We believe there needs to be a root and branch review of what the Welsh government did. Things need to be simplified and consolidated.
"There needs to be a cultural change of ownership and accountability as well. More doing and not just deliberating.
"We as a group have little confidence that there are any lessons learned to date. Nothing seems to be progressed beyond the discussions."
Gething said was no preparation considering the scale of
lockdown that ended up happening in 2020 and 2021.
“There was not a genuine consideration of the scale or the
depth of the Covid pandemic,” he said.
“So there wasn’t then a consideration presented to me – and I
think this evidence is common to all nations in the UK – of the scale of the
lockdowns that were then considered and implemented."
Gething did not question flu focus
Vaughan Gething says he didn't question the assumption flu was the biggest risk in pandemic plans.
Mr Gething made the comment after he confirmed that he hadn't read documents, guidance and plans looking at civil emergencies and pandemic
flu.
“I did not read those on my entry into the post,” Mr Gething
said, saying they were not for ministers to read through.
He did say that he received briefings on the Welsh
government’s preparedness for a pandemic, though.
He later added: “I didn't question the assumption that an
influenza pandemic was the most likely of the pandemic risks.”
Live Reporting
Edited by John Arkless and Emily McGarvey
All times stated are UK
Get involved
Video caption: The FM says 'granular planning' is only possible when the nature of a pandemic is apparentThe FM says 'granular planning' is only possible when the nature of a pandemic is apparent -
Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford said that resources were taken away from implementing pandemic plans in 2018 because of the looming threat of a no-deal Brexit
-
Drakeford said the government had some failings in its plans for pandemic preparedness in years before the Covid outbreak
- Wales was "not prepared enough" to deal with excess deaths from a pandemic, ex-health minister Vaughan Gething told the inquiry
-
He also said plans that existed for pandemic influenza would've left Wales vulnerable and PPE stockpiles were "woefully inadequate"
-
Gething admitted he may have "sped up" pandemic preparedness if he'd put more time into it
-
The inquiry also heard from Dr Quentin Sandifer of Public Health Wales and former chief executive of the Welsh NHS Dr Andrew Goodall, who said a 2011 pandemic flu strategy "had a number of flaws"
Video caption: The FM says his first cabinet meeting in 2018 focused on BrexitThe FM says his first cabinet meeting in 2018 focused on Brexit 
Crown CopyrightCopyright: Crown Copyright Analysis
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry 
BBCCopyright: BBC 
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media Anna-Louise Marsh-ReesImage caption: Anna-Louise Marsh-Rees
Latest PostThanks for joining us
That's it for today, and for evidence from Welsh officials for the time being.
We're now ending our coverage of the UK's Covid inquiry for today. Thanks for joining us.
Today's live page was written by David Deans with analysis from Hywel Griffith. The page was edited by John Arkless and Emily McGarvey.
You can read more about the Covid inquiry here.
What did we hear in today's evidence?
Video content
We've finished hearing today's evidence from the Covid inquiry. Here's a reminder of what was said:
WATCH: Cabinet meeting devoted to danger of no-deal Brexit - Drakeford
Video content
As we reported earlier, Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford was asked about civil contingency structures before the pandemic.
Drakeford says his first Cabinet meeting when he became FM in 2018 was almost entirely devoted to preparations for leaving the EU without a deal.
'Difficult to plan for unequal impact of pandemic'
In the final topic of today's evidence, Keith said "very little attention" was given to how a pandemic would affect sections of the community disproportionately, and how the impact on vulnerable and marginalised groups could be mitigated.
Drakeford said the Welsh government was aware there would be an unequal impact of a pandemic, and that it was "difficult to anticipate in advance of that pandemic where those inequalities would most fall".
He said the "granular planning" of how to mitigate that would be dealt with when the nature of the pandemic became "more apparent".
Drakeford finishes giving evidence
Welsh First Minister Mark Drakeford has now concluded his evidence to the UK Covid-19 inquiry.
Stay with us as we bring you more of what he said and key lines from today's hearing.
'Government had some failings in pandemic preparedness'
Keith asks Drakeford, given the evidence we've heard so far, if there were "significant failings" in pandemic preparedness plans in the eight years before the Covid outbreak.
Drakeford admits there were failings and the Welsh government wasn't as prepared as it could have been.
But he also says the counsel's assessment is "unduly bleak".
Resources diverted amid threat of no-deal Brexit
Hugo Keith KC is questioning Drakeford about the recommendations in the aftermath of Exercise Cygnus in 2016 - a cross-government pandemic exercise.
Keith asks Drakeford about the Welsh Pandemic Flu Preparedness Group, which was set up to implement plans after Cygnus.
Although there's some disagreement about whether the group last met in January or October 2018, when questioned, Drakeford says it is "without doubt" recommendations were never fully implemented.
He says at the time, resources were being diverted to focus on the "dangers" of a no-deal Brexit.
There's another short break before we finish off hearing the first minister's evidence.
'Sensible to rely on expertise and capacity of UK government'
Drakeford tells inquiry the Welsh government didn't feel the need to create a Wales-specific risk assessment document after the transfer of powers of civil contingencies in 2018.
“I’m not sure we would have felt there was a huge advantage to be gained from deducing Welsh specific risks when the UK government process looked like one that had the expertise to deliver it."
He says for "certain purposes" it is "sensible from a Welsh perspective to rely on the expertise and capacity that the UK government has".
He adds that creating a Welsh-intermediate tier for a national risk register "did not justify the resources".
The first minister is asked about the principle that all risk is local, which echoes some of the main criticism of the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group.
They say there were Wales-specific vulnerabilities which should have been addressed.
Cabinet meeting almost entirely devoted to Brexit - Drakeford
Mark Drakeford said it was a "matter of disappointment" that a review of civil contingency structures was initiated in 2018 but did not take place until this year.
Some powers over the issue had been transferred to Cardiff in 2018, although without an increase in funding.
However, Drakeford says his first Cabinet meeting was also focused on one thing - Brexit.
He tells the inquiry: “Four days after becoming first minister, almost the whole of our Cabinet meeting was devoted to preparations for leaving the EU without a deal.
“The system was already turning its sights very firmly to a danger that was right in front of you.”
Drakeford being tested on involvement in Covid planning
Hywel Griffith
Wales Correspondent
With a reputation for caution and deliberation, Mark Drakeford is known in political circles for wanting to read every piece of advice available before reaching a decision.
That means that his grasp of pandemic preparedness and the choices he faced when the Covid outbreak occurred in 2020 should have been strong.
What’s being tested this afternoon is how involved he was with the planning process and how aware he was of the deficiencies.
In his evidence, Vaughan Gething made a point of saying that there were several planning documents he hadn’t read during his time as health minister.
His view is that a minister’s time should be used carefully and that they should be able to rely on the judgement of those who brief them.
Civil contingency groups 'were not particularly complex'
Much of the start of Drakeford's evidence is looking at the structure of bodies that deal with civil contingencies.
A report from 2012 suggested that there were too many civil contingency groups, the inquiry hears.
But Drakeford says from the perspective of a minister, the system did "not look particularly complex".
Once structures move into professional roles and perspectives, “it does sometimes enter a rather arcane world”.
Ministers wanted to see advice coming to desk "has been tested as the necessary expertise", Drakeford explains, and he didn’t feel complexity was a barrier to that.
Drakeford begins giving evidence
That concludes former Health Minister Vaughan Gething's evidence. We're now hearing from Wales' First Minister Mark Drakeford.
He's being questioned by Hugo Keith KC.
Drakeford has been first minister since 2018 and also served as health minister in the Welsh government between 2013 and 2016.
Plans to deal with excess deaths 'put families in pain'
Former Health Minister Vaughan Gething says a lack preparedness to deal with excess deaths led to additional pain for bereaved families.
Appearing to become emotional as he spoke, and under questioning for the counsel for the Welsh bereaved families group, he said: “One of the things I found most difficult was the dignity in death and knowing what a bad death is, and understanding that has a real impact on people left behind.
“When we started and had to consider the measures we might have to take immediately for mortuary capacity and crematoria."
He said there were plans that were discussed with partners “about how to increase crematory capacity. But actually all of this work was not fully completed”.
“That meant that when Covid came we were not as prepared as we could and should have been, and that does… lead to additional pain for bereaved families,” he said, adding he accepted responsibility.
How long did PPE stockpiles last?
Vaughan Gething referenced PPE stockpiles, which he called "woefully inadequate".
This is how the numbers broke down at the start of the pandemic.
Pandemic flu plan 'not complete'
Vaughan Gething appeared to agree, when it was put to him by counsel, that Wales’ PPE stockpile had been “woefully inadequate” to deal with the pandemic being planned for.
“We would go in through PPE at a much faster rate than our planning assumptions assumed we would, so actually, we found that our stockpile that should have lasted for a whole wave."
He then added: “I think it's fair to say that the plan for an influenza pandemic would still have had challenge.
“I hesitate to say it was inadequate because it's such a loaded term but certainly with all the evidence that I've seen… the planning for an influenza pandemic was not complete, and we would have had vulnerabilities if it had been an influenza pandemic.”
Minister 'could have sped preparedness up'
The former Welsh health minister has said he could've "sped up" preparedness for a pandemic if he had put more time into it.
Vaughan Gething also admitted that he had not read the report that resulted from the Cygnus Exercise into preparing for pandemic flu.
The counsel to the inquiry, Kate Blackwell, read out a part of the conclusions that found the UK's plans, policies and capabilities were not sufficent to cope with the severe demands of an extreme pandemic.
He said if he had read it he would "have asked extra questions about what was taking place".
Advisers had fed back that there was a need for improvements, and he said he had recieved briefings.
But he added: "Looking back, I think it is fair to say that if I had put more ministerial time into this, then I may well have sped up preparedness."
Earlier, he said dealing with the here and now and considering potential future problems was a “difficult balance to strike".
Speaking of the 2018-2019 Cwm Taf Morgannwg health board maternity services crisis meant “other things had to move... including longer term priorities".
Strained relations with UK government affected plans
Strained ministerial relations between the Welsh and UK governments hampered pandemic planning, Vaughan Gething says.
“I think they would have been better if we had had some form of ministerial engagement beyond the Cygnus Exercise,” he said.
“We would request meetings. We wrote on a number of issues”, he said. “We did not get a response.”
He said there should “always be some room for pragmatism”.
“You don’t have to like the person at the other side of the desk. We should, from time-to-time meet."
Wales 'needs root and branch review'
A group representing bereaved families in Wales spoke outside the inquiry during the break.
Anna-Louise Marsh-Rees, from Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru, said: "Following this morning's session, all I can say is that we certainly do things differently in Wales.
"The UK government kept influenza pandemic on the top right of their risk register. However, Wales removed it from theirs and they put it into a different risk register.
"We believe there needs to be a root and branch review of what the Welsh government did. Things need to be simplified and consolidated.
"There needs to be a cultural change of ownership and accountability as well. More doing and not just deliberating.
"We as a group have little confidence that there are any lessons learned to date. Nothing seems to be progressed beyond the discussions."
Scale of lockdown not prepared for
Gething said was no preparation considering the scale of lockdown that ended up happening in 2020 and 2021.
“There was not a genuine consideration of the scale or the depth of the Covid pandemic,” he said.
“So there wasn’t then a consideration presented to me – and I think this evidence is common to all nations in the UK – of the scale of the lockdowns that were then considered and implemented."
Gething did not question flu focus
Vaughan Gething says he didn't question the assumption flu was the biggest risk in pandemic plans.
Mr Gething made the comment after he confirmed that he hadn't read documents, guidance and plans looking at civil emergencies and pandemic flu.
“I did not read those on my entry into the post,” Mr Gething said, saying they were not for ministers to read through.
He did say that he received briefings on the Welsh government’s preparedness for a pandemic, though.
He later added: “I didn't question the assumption that an influenza pandemic was the most likely of the pandemic risks.”