The inquiry has resumed and former Health Minister and current Economy Minister Vaughan Gething has started giving evidence to the Covid inquiry.
He was in charge of the health department when Covid struck in March 2020, having taken on the role in 2016.
He moved jobs after the May 2021 Senedd elections.
BBCCopyright: BBC
Vaughan GethingImage caption: Vaughan Gething
Concerns about isolation rooms
In our last evidence before lunch, we heard Dr Quentin Sandifer say he raised concerns about isolation rooms in hospitals with Wales' chief medical officer four years ago.
Laura Shepherd, barrister for the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group, highlighted a Public Health Wales (PHW) review from 2017.
It concluded that since 2006 annual reports had warned "many" airborne isolation rooms in major hospitals across Wales "are inadequate for the purpose intended, when assessed against current best practice".
Ms Shepherd read from the 2017 PHW review, which said buildings did not support safe management of patients with infectious diseases.
Ms Shepherd asked Dr Sandifer if this was still the case in January 2020.
"Yes, I expect it was," he replied.
"I certainly raised it as an ongoing concern in July of 2019 with the chief medical officer.
"I fully recognise this report and I fully agree with the content of this report."
Dr Sandifer said health boards are responsible for ensuring there are safe isolation facilities across the Welsh NHS.
Analysis: Bewildering acronyms and a fragmented approach
Hywel Griffith
BBC News' Wales Correspondent
The array of acronyms and initialisms emerging in this evidence can seem
bewildering - from LRFs to HEPU, NERVTAG, ECCW and SCGs.
They signify a system
where specialisation is key and each different body has a degree of autonomy.
Some committees feed into each other, some cross borders.
However, they also
suggest a fragmented approach ahead of the pandemic, where concerns could be
raised and flaws exposed but problems were not owned and resolved.
It will be
interesting to see how the First Minister Mark Drakeford characterises Wales’
approach to planning when he takes his seat in the inquiry this afternoon.
First minister arrives ahead of evidence
First Minister Mark Drakeford has been pictured arriving at the inquiry.
He's scheduled to give evidence this afternoon, although we're still to hear from former Health Minister Vaughan Gething, who was due to answer questions this morning.
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
Lunch
Dr Sandifer's evidence has concluded, and that wraps things up for the morning.
We were due to hear from Vaughan Gething this morning, but we haven't had time.
As a result, there's a shortened break and the evidence will resume at about 13:45.
Twelve years to update disease plan
Dr Sandifer said it was a concern that a communicable
diseases outbreak plan was not updated for 12 years.
He was unable to explain the delay, telling the inquiry it predated his time at Public Health Wales.
The plan from 1995 was not updated in draft until in 2007, and not finalised until 2011 when it was consolidated with two other plans.
“I would have accepted our plans to have been reviewed or
updated in a period of 12 years at least once or twice,” he said.
“It’s a concern that 12 years elapsed between the updating
of a plan.”
Emergency plan did not refer to pandemic
Dr Sandifer denied that the absence of references to a pandemic
in an emergency planning document from 2019 suggested it was not at the forefront
of minds at Public Health Wales (PHW).
Counsel for the inquiry Kate Blackwell KC said there were
references to bomb threats and Brexit.
He said Brexit was included “because it was a live issue at
the time”, but pandemic flu was set out in other documents.
The expert said in hindsight he could see that it deserved a
mention.
Blackwell put it to him that it demonstrated it was not at the forefront of minds at PHW and other organisations involved in
the creation of the document.
“I don't agree with that,” Dr Sandifer replied.
He said “Public Health Wales has had a full and active
involvement in support of and advising Welsh government and partners in the
development of our pandemic influenza plans.”
'Events overtook us'
A Public Health Wales emergency response plan was not
updated from 2018 to 2022, the inquiry hears.
Dr Sandifer says that was “simply because events overtook us
at the beginning of 2020”.
“The plan was still, we considered, relevant at the beginning
of the outbreak of the pandemic, but during the course of the pandemic we
recognised that the plan would need
updating."
He says this was updated at the "earliest appropriate time".
Being on scientific adviser group 'would be beneficial'
Dr Sandifer tells the inquiry it would have been "beneficial" if Public Health Wales - the country's public health body - had been represented on a key group of scientific advisers.
There was no representation of Public Health Wales on the New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (NERVTAG), he says.
He also said there had been no seat on Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) before the pandemic.
“I do think it would be beneficial for PHW to be on NERVTAG," he told the hearing, although he suggested it would be more appropriate for the Welsh government to have representation on SAGE.
Next witness
After a short break, the inquiry has resumed.
We're now hearing from Dr Quentin Sandifer, consultant adviser on pandemic and international health at Public Health Wales.
He's being questioned by Kate Blackwell KC.
Covid inquiryCopyright: Covid inquiry
Dr Quentin SandiferImage caption: Dr Quentin Sandifer
Dr Goodall finishes his evidence
Dr Goodall has now finished his evidence.
Earlier Hugo Keith asked Dr Goodall about a review that was carried out earlier this year which found that there remained flaws in Wales’ civil contingencies system, including around leadership, training and learning lessons.
Dr Goodall replied “work is under way” to resolve those issues.
Mr Keith then asked Dr Goodall if he agreed that “given many of those issues have been raised consistently, continuously from 2012 onwards, that is an egregious example of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted?”
Dr Goodall replied: “We've had to learn many lessons and adapt and we need to ensure that we keep addressing the issues from our planning and also from our recent experiences as well.”
The inquiry is taking a short break now and evidence will resume in about 10 minutes.
Analysis: Did the Welsh government take its eye off the ball?
Hywel Griffith
BBC News' Wales Correspondent
Did the Welsh government take its “eye off the ball"?
That’s
the key question being asked of those who sit in the inquiry room today.
By
pouring though planning documents in detail, we can see how the possibility of
a pandemic was considered in the decade before Covid started to spread.
However, it didn’t appear in the main risk register for the Welsh government in
2019, having been designated as something for the health service to worry
about.
Confidence in the Welsh NHS’ ability to cope had grown by 2019, the risk
score reduced, despite the fact several plans hadn’t been updated for years and
actions in previous reports hadn’t been followed up.
It adds to the picture of
a system where problems had been recognised for years but not resolved before
the first Covid outbreak.
Adult care 'significant failing' in simulation
Dr Andrew Goodall and Hugo Keith are talking about Exercise
Cygnus again, the cross-government pandemic simulation initially held in 2014.
Mr Keith puts to Dr Goodall that capacity to cope with the demands of a pandemic in the adult social care sector “was perhaps
the most significant failing identified at the time”.
“Yes, I would agree that was still an area of concern,” Goodall said.
“It was a serious issue for local authorities."
The numbers that caught Covid in care homes and the circumstances around that remains one of the most controversial aspects of the UK's response to the disease.
Pandemic strategy from 2011 'flawed'
Goodall tells the inquiry he agreed a 2011 pandemic
strategy had a “number of assumptions”.
This meant the Welsh government didn't plan for measures it might have have needed to respond to a coronavirus.
“There were a number of assumptions in there that directed
us to not plan for a range of areas and that might have included mass
gatherings, non-pharmaceutical interventions," he tells the inquiry.
“I do agree that there were a range of areas in which we're
not looking to contain mechanisms and therefore, more focus on those nonfarm
pharmaceutical interventions would have genuinely helped in the response.”
Keith had put it to him that the 2011 pandemic flu strategy
had a “number of flaws”.
Preparing for a pandemic 'not a focus'
The former health minister Vaughan Gething is giving evidence later but he's already popped up in discussions today.
Keith has read out a witness statement where Gething suggested preparing for a pandemic was not a "particular focus of interest" of government or the Welsh Parliament, and he did not remember significant questions in the media.
Mr Gething, the counsel explained, had said it did not feature prominanelty in his work until Exercise Cygnus, a 2016 government simulation of a pandemic flu outbreak.
Dr Goodall says in response that he noted the minister’s statement and "we would have raised the
issue with the minister if we had significant concern".
Yesterday, the inquiry was told that some concern had been raised with the minister around pandemic planning.
Dr Andrew Goodall begins day's evidence
The permanent secretary of the Welsh government has started speaking.
Lead counsel to the inquiry Hugo Keith is scrutinising him over the Welsh government's corporate risk register - a document summarising the risks it faced.
He tells the hearing that a document from 2019 showed no specific consideration of pandemic flu being a risk.
Goodall said the issue had been considered in Wales' health risk register, a separate document.
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Dr Andrew GoodallImage caption: Dr Andrew Goodall
Wales 'no more prepared' for pandemic now
Ahead of today's evidence, Dr Ian Robertson-Steel, former deputy medical director of Hywel Dda health board, which covers west Wales, spoke to BBC Radio Wales Breakfast about the inquiry.
He said: "In practical terms, Wales was not up to speed with a Covid pandemic on this scale.
"We are no more prepared now, and disease X may just emerge.
"The numbers involved, the risk to the health service was greatly underrated.
"In terms of practical planning for a pandemic, there was not a robust planning structure."
Who are we hearing from today?
There will be four speakers today across a morning and afternoon session.
From 10:00 BST:
Dr Andrew Goodall,
permanent secretary to the Welsh government and, at the height of the
pandemic, chief executive of the Welsh NHS
Dr Quentin Sandifer,
consultant adviser on pandemic and international Health at Public Health
Wales
Vaughan Gething, former
health minister, 2016 to 2021, and former deputy deputy minister for health
2014 to 2016
From 14:00:
Mark Drakeford, Wales' first minister since 2018
What happened yesterday?
Yesterday we heard from Wales' Chief Medical Officer Sir Frank
Atherton, who painted a picture of a Welsh government unprepared for the
pandemic.
Sir Frank told the inquiry that no-deal Brexit preparations meant resources were put elsewhere.
He said ministers at one point were alerted by officials to
the slow progress on reviewing their preparations for the pandemic.
And he said there had been no debate about a pandemic that
was not caused by flu.
Meanwhile Dr Andrew Goodall, the permanent secretary of the
Welsh government and former chief executive of the Welsh NHS, admitted task and finish groups looking at the pandemic did not see their all their
recommendations implemented.
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Wales' Chief Medical Officer Sir Frank Atherton gave evidence on MondayImage caption: Wales' Chief Medical Officer Sir Frank Atherton gave evidence on Monday
Welcome back
Welcome back to the second day of hearings involving Welsh
officials at the Covid-19 inquiry.
Today we will hear from Mark Drakeford, the first minister
of Wales.
That’s at 14:00 BST – before that Dr Andrew Goodall will
finish his evidence from yesterday, and former health minister Vaughan Gething
will also give evidence.
Live Reporting
Edited by John Arkless and Emily McGarvey
All times stated are UK
Get involved
Vaughan Gething next up
The inquiry has resumed and former Health Minister and current Economy Minister Vaughan Gething has started giving evidence to the Covid inquiry.
He was in charge of the health department when Covid struck in March 2020, having taken on the role in 2016.
He moved jobs after the May 2021 Senedd elections.
Concerns about isolation rooms
In our last evidence before lunch, we heard Dr Quentin Sandifer say he raised concerns about isolation rooms in hospitals with Wales' chief medical officer four years ago.
Laura Shepherd, barrister for the Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru group, highlighted a Public Health Wales (PHW) review from 2017.
It concluded that since 2006 annual reports had warned "many" airborne isolation rooms in major hospitals across Wales "are inadequate for the purpose intended, when assessed against current best practice".
Ms Shepherd read from the 2017 PHW review, which said buildings did not support safe management of patients with infectious diseases.
Ms Shepherd asked Dr Sandifer if this was still the case in January 2020.
"Yes, I expect it was," he replied.
"I certainly raised it as an ongoing concern in July of 2019 with the chief medical officer.
"I fully recognise this report and I fully agree with the content of this report."
Dr Sandifer said health boards are responsible for ensuring there are safe isolation facilities across the Welsh NHS.
Analysis: Bewildering acronyms and a fragmented approach
Hywel Griffith
BBC News' Wales Correspondent
The array of acronyms and initialisms emerging in this evidence can seem bewildering - from LRFs to HEPU, NERVTAG, ECCW and SCGs.
They signify a system where specialisation is key and each different body has a degree of autonomy.
Some committees feed into each other, some cross borders.
However, they also suggest a fragmented approach ahead of the pandemic, where concerns could be raised and flaws exposed but problems were not owned and resolved.
It will be interesting to see how the First Minister Mark Drakeford characterises Wales’ approach to planning when he takes his seat in the inquiry this afternoon.
First minister arrives ahead of evidence
First Minister Mark Drakeford has been pictured arriving at the inquiry.
He's scheduled to give evidence this afternoon, although we're still to hear from former Health Minister Vaughan Gething, who was due to answer questions this morning.
Lunch
Dr Sandifer's evidence has concluded, and that wraps things up for the morning.
We were due to hear from Vaughan Gething this morning, but we haven't had time.
As a result, there's a shortened break and the evidence will resume at about 13:45.
Twelve years to update disease plan
Dr Sandifer said it was a concern that a communicable diseases outbreak plan was not updated for 12 years.
He was unable to explain the delay, telling the inquiry it predated his time at Public Health Wales.
The plan from 1995 was not updated in draft until in 2007, and not finalised until 2011 when it was consolidated with two other plans.
“I would have accepted our plans to have been reviewed or updated in a period of 12 years at least once or twice,” he said.
“It’s a concern that 12 years elapsed between the updating of a plan.”
Emergency plan did not refer to pandemic
Dr Sandifer denied that the absence of references to a pandemic in an emergency planning document from 2019 suggested it was not at the forefront of minds at Public Health Wales (PHW).
Counsel for the inquiry Kate Blackwell KC said there were references to bomb threats and Brexit.
He said Brexit was included “because it was a live issue at the time”, but pandemic flu was set out in other documents.
The expert said in hindsight he could see that it deserved a mention.
Blackwell put it to him that it demonstrated it was not at the forefront of minds at PHW and other organisations involved in the creation of the document.
“I don't agree with that,” Dr Sandifer replied.
He said “Public Health Wales has had a full and active involvement in support of and advising Welsh government and partners in the development of our pandemic influenza plans.”
'Events overtook us'
A Public Health Wales emergency response plan was not updated from 2018 to 2022, the inquiry hears.
Dr Sandifer says that was “simply because events overtook us at the beginning of 2020”.
“The plan was still, we considered, relevant at the beginning of the outbreak of the pandemic, but during the course of the pandemic we recognised that the plan would need updating."
He says this was updated at the "earliest appropriate time".
Being on scientific adviser group 'would be beneficial'
Dr Sandifer tells the inquiry it would have been "beneficial" if Public Health Wales - the country's public health body - had been represented on a key group of scientific advisers.
There was no representation of Public Health Wales on the New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group (NERVTAG), he says.
He also said there had been no seat on Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies (SAGE) before the pandemic.
“I do think it would be beneficial for PHW to be on NERVTAG," he told the hearing, although he suggested it would be more appropriate for the Welsh government to have representation on SAGE.
Next witness
After a short break, the inquiry has resumed.
We're now hearing from Dr Quentin Sandifer, consultant adviser on pandemic and international health at Public Health Wales.
He's being questioned by Kate Blackwell KC.
Dr Goodall finishes his evidence
Dr Goodall has now finished his evidence.
Earlier Hugo Keith asked Dr Goodall about a review that was carried out earlier this year which found that there remained flaws in Wales’ civil contingencies system, including around leadership, training and learning lessons.
Dr Goodall replied “work is under way” to resolve those issues.
Mr Keith then asked Dr Goodall if he agreed that “given many of those issues have been raised consistently, continuously from 2012 onwards, that is an egregious example of locking the stable door after the horse has bolted?”
Dr Goodall replied: “We've had to learn many lessons and adapt and we need to ensure that we keep addressing the issues from our planning and also from our recent experiences as well.”
The inquiry is taking a short break now and evidence will resume in about 10 minutes.
Analysis: Did the Welsh government take its eye off the ball?
Hywel Griffith
BBC News' Wales Correspondent
Did the Welsh government take its “eye off the ball"?
That’s the key question being asked of those who sit in the inquiry room today.
By pouring though planning documents in detail, we can see how the possibility of a pandemic was considered in the decade before Covid started to spread.
However, it didn’t appear in the main risk register for the Welsh government in 2019, having been designated as something for the health service to worry about.
Confidence in the Welsh NHS’ ability to cope had grown by 2019, the risk score reduced, despite the fact several plans hadn’t been updated for years and actions in previous reports hadn’t been followed up.
It adds to the picture of a system where problems had been recognised for years but not resolved before the first Covid outbreak.
Adult care 'significant failing' in simulation
Dr Andrew Goodall and Hugo Keith are talking about Exercise Cygnus again, the cross-government pandemic simulation initially held in 2014.
Mr Keith puts to Dr Goodall that capacity to cope with the demands of a pandemic in the adult social care sector “was perhaps the most significant failing identified at the time”.
“Yes, I would agree that was still an area of concern,” Goodall said.
“It was a serious issue for local authorities."
The numbers that caught Covid in care homes and the circumstances around that remains one of the most controversial aspects of the UK's response to the disease.
Pandemic strategy from 2011 'flawed'
Goodall tells the inquiry he agreed a 2011 pandemic strategy had a “number of assumptions”.
This meant the Welsh government didn't plan for measures it might have have needed to respond to a coronavirus.
“There were a number of assumptions in there that directed us to not plan for a range of areas and that might have included mass gatherings, non-pharmaceutical interventions," he tells the inquiry.
“I do agree that there were a range of areas in which we're not looking to contain mechanisms and therefore, more focus on those nonfarm pharmaceutical interventions would have genuinely helped in the response.”
Keith had put it to him that the 2011 pandemic flu strategy had a “number of flaws”.
Preparing for a pandemic 'not a focus'
The former health minister Vaughan Gething is giving evidence later but he's already popped up in discussions today.
Keith has read out a witness statement where Gething suggested preparing for a pandemic was not a "particular focus of interest" of government or the Welsh Parliament, and he did not remember significant questions in the media.
Mr Gething, the counsel explained, had said it did not feature prominanelty in his work until Exercise Cygnus, a 2016 government simulation of a pandemic flu outbreak.
Dr Goodall says in response that he noted the minister’s statement and "we would have raised the issue with the minister if we had significant concern".
Yesterday, the inquiry was told that some concern had been raised with the minister around pandemic planning.
Dr Andrew Goodall begins day's evidence
The permanent secretary of the Welsh government has started speaking.
Lead counsel to the inquiry Hugo Keith is scrutinising him over the Welsh government's corporate risk register - a document summarising the risks it faced.
He tells the hearing that a document from 2019 showed no specific consideration of pandemic flu being a risk.
Goodall said the issue had been considered in Wales' health risk register, a separate document.
Wales 'no more prepared' for pandemic now
Ahead of today's evidence, Dr Ian Robertson-Steel, former deputy medical director of Hywel Dda health board, which covers west Wales, spoke to BBC Radio Wales Breakfast about the inquiry.
He said: "In practical terms, Wales was not up to speed with a Covid pandemic on this scale.
"We are no more prepared now, and disease X may just emerge.
"The numbers involved, the risk to the health service was greatly underrated.
"In terms of practical planning for a pandemic, there was not a robust planning structure."
Who are we hearing from today?
There will be four speakers today across a morning and afternoon session.
From 10:00 BST:
From 14:00:
What happened yesterday?
Yesterday we heard from Wales' Chief Medical Officer Sir Frank Atherton, who painted a picture of a Welsh government unprepared for the pandemic.
Sir Frank told the inquiry that no-deal Brexit preparations meant resources were put elsewhere.
He said ministers at one point were alerted by officials to the slow progress on reviewing their preparations for the pandemic.
And he said there had been no debate about a pandemic that was not caused by flu.
Meanwhile Dr Andrew Goodall, the permanent secretary of the Welsh government and former chief executive of the Welsh NHS, admitted task and finish groups looking at the pandemic did not see their all their recommendations implemented.
Welcome back
Welcome back to the second day of hearings involving Welsh officials at the Covid-19 inquiry.
Today we will hear from Mark Drakeford, the first minister of Wales.
That’s at 14:00 BST – before that Dr Andrew Goodall will finish his evidence from yesterday, and former health minister Vaughan Gething will also give evidence.