Summary

  • Assembly committees sit in wake of Stormont's collapse, with election set for 2 March

  • Adviser to Arlene Foster 'exerted influence' over botched RHI scheme, top civil servant tells Public Accounts Committee

  • Education Committee discusses contingency plan for schools funding with dissolution of assembly looming

  1. 'Westminster would've pushed green energy agenda'published at 16:30 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Carla Lockhart of the DUP asks about the influence of the European Union in devising the scheme.

    Dr Andrew McCormick says "part of the policy was to fulfill an obligation under European directives, so there's a policy driver coming from Europe".

    Carla Lockhart

    In addition, the permanent secretary says the Westminster energy secretary would have been "pushing this agenda".

    "There were obligations on the UK state as a member to fulfill - the question for us was to translate that into detail," he says.

  2. 'Multi-million-pound project was going rudderless'published at 16:12 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    North Down DUP MLA Gordon Dunne is incredulous about the mismanagement and lack of monitoring of the RHI scheme.

    "Coming from a government background myself," he says, "I find it totally unbelievable that this multi-million-pound project was going rudderless".

    Gordon Dunne

    Dr McCormick says "the risks were identified at the outset" of the scheme in 2012.

    He says these risks "were not, as they should have been, monitored in a proper project management process".

  3. 'Foster was advised that tiering wasn't needed'published at 16:06 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Arlene Foster's insistence that she did not remove cost-controls from the RHI scheme is supported by Dr Andrew McCormick when he says she "was advised tiering wasn't needed".

    SDLP MLA Daniel McCrossan says the details that have emerged before the PAC today "don't fail to shock us".

    He says it is clear the scheme was "wide open to corruption" and quotes one person who apparently said "a complete idiot could see it's too good to be true".

    Arlene FosterImage source, AFP

    Dr McCormick takes issue with the term "corruption", saying that implies deception and "deception wasn't necessary to abuse this scheme".

    He says there is a requirement within the civil service to imagine "what's going on in the real world" when it draws up policy for schemes like the RHI initiative, and staff need to think: "If I was a crook, what would I do [to make money]?"

    "There's no evidence that we did in this case."

  4. 'Emails from industry players to other industry players'published at 15:57 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    The DUP's Trevor Clarke asks about emails sent in July 2015.

    Dr Andrew McCormick says that "in that period there was some premature disclosure of information to the industry".

    Trevor Clarke

    He refers to "emails from industry players to other industry players".

    "There are no official emails, addresses, departmental officials or [advisers] or ministers at all."

  5. 'Applicants have already given disclosure permission'published at 15:51 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Trevor Lunn challenges Dr Andrew McCormick's assertion that beneficiaries' details cannot be released due to concerns over compliance with data protection law.

    He suggests that these are "overridden" by "the fact that these people all consented to have those details put into the public domain" in their application for the scheme.

    Trevor Lunn

    The permanent secretary says the economy department is "now embroiled in an ongoing legal action".

    He accepts that had the department moved to disclose the information before now, that might not have been the case.

  6. 'Disclosure objections being review case-by-case'published at 15:46 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    The release of names of beneficiaries of the RHI scheme is raised by Trevor Lunn, who asks: "What has been the big deal about disclosure?"

    "Why has the minister decided, in the teeth of dissolution [of the assembly], that it's time to publish this list when he could have evidently done it t any stage?" the Alliance Party MLA enquires.

    Dr Andrew McCormick says that had the Department for the Economy (DfE) published the list of scheme claimants.

    A letter that reads: Strictly confidentialImage source, Thinkstock

    Last month, the DfE wrote to beneficiaries asking for their consent for their name to be published, but "more than 90%" would not allow that to happen.

    Each objection is now being considered by civil servants to determine whether they can be named in accordance with data protection laws.

    Dr McCormick says that had the department acted sooner on disclosure it could possibly have released details of all of the installations except the names linked to them.

  7. 'I believe Foster's adviser was exerting RHI influence'published at 15:29 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Alliance Party MLA Trevor Lunn presses further on the identity of the DUP figure who Dr Andrew McCormick claims exerted influence over the RHI scheme.

    Dr McCormick says he does "have an understanding" of who the person is.

    Andrew Crawford

    As he has no direct evidence he is reluctant to say more, but his belief is "based on what I've heard from others".

    DUP MLA Trevor Clarke objects to Mr Lunn's line of questioning and intervenes to say that the committee is "now feeding the frenzy of putting names in because of hearsay".

    Dr McCormick then says DUP adviser Andrew Crawford (above), who was advising Arlene Foster at the time, had been the person "exerting that influence".

  8. 'Keeping RHI open would maximise funds from London'published at 15:26 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Oliver McMullan of Sinn Féin asks Dr Andrew McCormick how DUP adviser Timothy Cairns sold the argument to keep the scheme open at the meeting in August 2015.

    "It was the view that was wanted," he says.

    Oliver McMullan

    "It was a determined view and partly driven by the thought this would maximise our take on funds from London - that was definitely part of the thinking.

    "That was wrong and unacceptable."

  9. 'Perfect storm of convergence and deliberate circumstances'published at 15:19 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Sinn Féin MLA Declan Kearney asks Dr Andrew McCormick if he has any reason to believe whether the "perfect storm" that led to scheme spiralling out of control "is anything more than a coincidence".

    The South Antrim MLA points out that there are "political influences", "systemically wrong" practices within the department, and "premature awareness within the industry".

    Declan Kearney

    Mr Kearney goes on: "Could I suggest to you that none of that is accidental or coincidental?", and he adds is could be seen as a "perfect storm of convergence and deliberate circumstances".

    Dr McCormick says it is "certainly to that construction", and it is "very hard to believe" that issues within the scheme were missed accidentally.

    But he does not have any evidence "to construct a jigsaw to say: 'Yes, there's a conspiracy.'"

  10. 'Have you seen any leaked insider information?'published at 15:16 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    The DUP's Alex Easton asks whether Dr Andrew McCormick has seen any letter or emails "about potential insider information coming out to the industry" that he touched on earlier.

    Alex Easton

    The permanent secretary says he has seen them, and committee chair Robin Swann says they have been passed in in full to the comptroller and auditor general.

  11. Ex-minister Bell keeps close eye on inquirypublished at 15:03 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

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  12. 'Meeting taped without my knowledge or consent'published at 15:00 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    There "is a possibility" that a conversation between Dr Andrew McCormick and then enterprise minister Jonathan Bell was recorded, the civil servant says.

    cassette tape

    Mr Bell told Dr McCormick last month that he wanted to "exercise his prerogative as a former minister" to review departmental papers, and a meeting between the two men happened the next day.

    Dr McCormick says he has heard that that meeting was taped but it was done "without my knowledge or consent".

  13. 'Evidence over RHI leaked to energy industry'published at 14:56 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    There is "evidence of some premature information" was leaked to the energy industry that there was potential for the RHI tariff to be reduced, Dr Andrew McCormick says.

    The message then went out within the industry for potential applicants to "get in quick" to the scheme before that tariff change was made.

    A man operates a biomass boilerImage source, Thinkstock

    He says is is a "possibly that there was a linkage" that the argument being made by DUP adviser Timothy Cairns to delay the tariff's reduction was influence by outside sources who asked to be given "longer" to jump aboard the lucrative initiative.

    He says that is "purely inference" and he has "no evidence" to back it, but is is "not unreasonable" that that might have happened.

    A "perfect storm" of factors was created allowing the scheme to grow out of control and there was "blindness" from civil servants as to the consequences of that.

  14. 'Officials not as forceable as we should have been'published at 14:55 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    PAC chair Mr Swann asks Dr Andrew McCormick about a meeting held on 24 August 2015, when it was decided to keep the scheme open until 4 November that year.

    He says he was present with his deputy permanent secretary, the minister Jonathan Bell and DUP adviser Timothy Cairns.

    Dr Andrew McCormick

    "The fourth of November was the date suggested and we were asked was that acceptable," he says.

    "We had been expressing significant concerns, including the concern about the potential for this to be over budget," Dr McCormick says.

    He adds: "There was strong pressure from us to get with dealt with as soon as possible," and says officials were "not as forceable in our arguments as with hindsight we should have been".

  15. 'Adviser suggested keeping scheme open in spite of rising costs'published at 14:47 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Dr Andrew McCormick says he has no evidence to back his claim of DUP influence over the scheme, but he formed his view on basis of conversations with Timothy Cairns.

    Mr Cairns suggested that the RHI scheme should stay open at the higher tariff rate should stay open until November 2015, in spite of the rising costs, the civil servant says.

    wide shot of senate chamber

    But he adds that Mr Cairns's argument did not come from him, "but from someone else".

    Dr McCormick says civil servants treat ministerial advisers as "minister's agents" and "everything they're saying is aligned to the minister's view".

  16. 'Never clear who in DUP exerted influence on RHI'published at 14:31 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Chair Robin Swann cuts straight to today's major development in the RHI scandal - that being that Dr Andrew McCormick raised concerns over influence being exerted by a DUP figure not to introduce cost controls in the initiative.

    The UUP MLA asks Dr McCormick whether he is able to speak freely on the matter, and enquires as to whether the information that emerged this morning was accurate and released with his consent.

    Robin Swann

    The Department for the Economy permanent secretary says that he can speak openly.

    He adds that he put advice to then enterprise minister Jonathan Bell on 8 July 2015 to cut the RHI tariff, but there was "a view from others in the party that the date originally proposed should be extended".

    He says it was "never clear who exactly" exerted that influence, but says it was not the idea of Mr Bell nor his then adviser Timothy Cairns.

  17. 'Deep apology from civil service over RHI flaws'published at 14:30 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Department of the Economy officials arrive to begin their evidence session on the RHI scandal.

    Permanent secretary Dr Andrew McCormick offers a "deep apology on behalf of the civil service for the very serious mistakes that have led to this particular crisis".

    Dr Andrew McCormick

    He says there is "a complex layer of politics on top of that".

    But he adds: "The vast majority of what went wrong is down to a small number of civil service errors".

  18. In the PAC chairpublished at 14:17 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    Ulster Unionist Robin Swann is in the chair in Stormont's old senate chamber for this afternoon's RHI inquiry session.

    MLAs inside the PAC

    It's noticeable that Sinn Féin MLAs Michele Gildernew, Oliver McMullan and Declan Kearney are in attendance.

    Their party colleagues have not been attending assembly committees in recent days.

  19. Top civil servant due before Public Accounts Commiteepublished at 14:02 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    We're back, with what promises to be a revelatory session of the Public Accounts Committee's (PAC) inquiry into the RHI scandal.

    Among those listed to give evidence is Dr Andrew McCormick, the senior civil servant at the Department for the Economy.

    A microphoneImage source, AFP

    BBC Radio Ulster's The Stephen Nolan Show revealed this morning that the DUP has said Dr McCormick raised concerns with the party that one of its figures was exerting influence to delay introducing cost controls in the scheme.

    He told the party of his concerns, but said he had no evidence.  

  20. Time for lunchpublished at 12:14 Greenwich Mean Time 18 January 2017

    The committee ties up some loose administrative ends and Chris Lyttle thanks the members for their attendance.

    It's still unsure whether the committee will meet again next week.

    Cheese sandwichImage source, PA

    Time to break for lunch now.

    Be sure to join us again at 14:00 for live coverage of the Public Accounts Committee.

    This promises to be a fascinating session as the PAC continues its inquiry into the RHI scandal.

    Among this afternoon's witnesses is top civil servant Dr Andrew McCormick.