Renewable Heat Incentive Inquiry examining botched energy scheme
Tim Cairns, former DUP adviser to minister Jonathan Bell, gives evidence
Inquiry set up after public concern over scheme's huge projected overspend
Retired Court of Appeal judge Sir Patrick Coghlin chairing inquiry at Stormont
Public hearings entering critical phase with high-profile witnesses giving evidence
Image source, RHI InquiryWith everyone back in the Senate chamber after a bite to eat and a stretch of the legs, inquiry counsel Donal Lunny resumes his questioning of former DUP adviser Tim Cairns...
The inquiry breaks to allow everyone to grab a sandwich - join us again at 14:00 for the afternoon session.
Enterprise minister Jonathan Bell's absence from DETI in August 2015 was "clearly problematic all round", says Mr Cairns.
There "was a lot of urgent" business that needed to be addressed, he says, but the minister was on holiday.
Image source, Pacemaker"It wasn't only the RHI on the bubble that needed to be dealt with," he adds, and in discussions t with the minister's private secretary they agreed that the situation was "unsatisfactory".
He accepts that he or the department's top civil servant "should've said: 'Minister, you need to get down here - things are backing up in the system.'"
Mr Cairns says there's no evidence that he had any no cynical motives for trying to delay the introduction of cost controls in the RHI scheme.
Image source, PA"They may have been other people's motives but they certainly weren't mine," he says.
He explains that he doesn't have any "connections within the industry or within the farming community".
Senior DETI civil servant Mr Stewart told the inquiry in June that that officials had encountered resistance from Mr Cairns to the RH scheme changes for no good reason.
Image source, RHI InquiryAsked about that, Mr Cairns says that complaints of an "open sore of resistance that seemed to fester" were never expressed to him.
"I was completely unaware of its existence - it was never even hinted at at the time" he says.
Dr Crawford's plan to increase the threshold of hours in which RHI scheme claimants could receive the top rate of subsidy was "never seriously going to happen", says Mr Cairns.
He tells the inquiry that he was content for it to be dropped as soon as officials told him that it was not a runner because it didn't represent value for money.
Image source, Getty ImagesHe passed the message on to Dr Crawford that the plan had been rejected and he says they accepted that they would have to go ahead with the existing cost controls plan coming into effect on 1 October 2015.
"Myself and Dr Crawford were in common cause - the process was at an end."
Dr Crawford told Mr Cairns in an email at the end of July 2015 that a weakness in the RHI scheme meant that people were able to heat empty poultry houses for profit.
Asked if he recognised that as representing a "perverse incentive" to game the scheme, Mr Cairns says he drew it to the attention of DETI's deputy permanent secretary Chris Stewart who dealt with it '"as a hypothetical".
The official's attitude was "there's no-one who's doing this but yes that could be done", adds the witness, who says he he took comfort from Mr Stewart's advice.
At the end of July 2015, Dr Crawford suggested to Mr Cairns a change to the RHI scheme's cost controls plan.
It was to increase the threshold of hours that a claimant could run their biomass boiler for before RHI scheme payments would be reduced.
DETI's plan was to mirror the threshold in the similar RHI scheme in Great Britain of 1,314 hours but Dr Crawford wanted that to be more-than-doubled to 3,000.
Image source, Getty ImagesOfficials later dismissed it, saying it had no merit on value-for-money terms and would effectively render the rest of the cost controls plan ineffective - one said he saw it as a tactical plan to stall the cost controls.
Asked if he viewed it as a "nonsensical" plan, Mr Cairns says he didn't give it much thought before he took it to DETI officials.
And he adds that he didn't see it as an attempt by Dr Crawford to "run the clock down".
Mr Cairns recalls a meeting with Mr Bell on 30 July 2015 when he says the 8 July RHI scheme submission about cost controls and recommendations from officials was discussed.
He says he remembers it well due to the minister's "lack of preparation", which made it "hugely memorable for everybody that attended".
Image source, RHI InquiryMr Cairns says the meeting was "informal as informal can be".
He claims that he relayed to the minister the result of his discussions with Dr Crawford and the suggestion that they should seek to introduce the RHI changes at the latest date the officials would accept.
DETI's second most senior civil servant Chris Stewart (below) had told the inquiry that he sensed "resistance" from the DUP to the addition of cost controls to the RHI scheme during the summer of 2015.
He also said that officials felt like they were "being treated as the opposition" by ministers and advisers from the party.
Image source, RHI InquiryMr Cairns says it "kind of aggrieved me" when he read that: "I wish he'd said: 'I felt on a different team to you'... none of that was said until January 2016."
There was "nothing underhand" about how he was working with officials at the time.
Mr Cairns accepts that was he "should've been more open" about Dr Crawford's involvement in the strategy for the RHI scheme in the summer of 2015.
"I think I should've been more forceful,and mentioned his name and said: 'Let's bring Andrew into the meetings'."
Image source, RHI InquiryAsked why he was avoiding mentioning Dr Crawford's name, he says there's "no good reason".
He admits he kept Dr Crawford's involvement quiet from DETI officials for "no reason that I can give".
Sir Patrick quotes from the evidence of the two advisers to demonstrate how they contradict each other.
Dr Crawford's evidence to the inquiry is that "at no time did I suggest, ask for or push for the deadline to be pushed back".
But according to Mr Cairns it was Dr Crawford's view "from the outset" that the introduction of cost controls "should be delayed to the latest date the officials would recommend".
"Both of those cannot be true," says Sir Patrick.
"I suppose our memories are different," replies the witness.
Dr Crawford's evidence to the inquiry is that he never tried to postpone the addition of cost controls to the RHI scheme.
Mr Cairns says he "would certainly disagree" with his former colleague's view.
Image source, RHI InquirySir Patrick turns to the witness and tells him: "One of you is accurate or telling the truth about that - not both.
"I'm concentrating for a moment, Mr Cairns, on the credibility of the two of you."
Mr Cairns makes several references in his written statement to the inquiry to the plan to delay cost controls being DUP "policy".
In one passage, he writes: "From the outset it was Andrew Crawford's view that the introduction of cost controls should be delayed to the latest date that officials would recommend."
Image source, RHI InquiryHe adds that that was the "instruction" that he passed on to the enterprise minister Mr Bell.
He tells the inquiry now that his use of "instruction" is an "unfortunate word" and insists he didn't mean that Dr Crawford was commanding that cost controls should be delayed.
The inquiry barrister and the chair press him on his use of the word and he apologises for what he describes as an "inconsistency" and "not [writing] that paragraph very well".
Mr Cairns makes a distinction between two types of party policy, saying that there's high-level policy of the type drawn up to appear in election manifestos and another more mundane, lower-level type regarding day-to-day decisions.
Sir Patrick says that in his testimony the witness seems to '"float" between two other concepts of policy.
Image source, RHI InquiryOn the one hand are the discussions between himself, Mr Crawford and top DUP adviser Mr Johnston, which he communicated to officials.
"The other end of that continuum is you receiving instruction from Mr Johnston and/or Mr Crawford as to what to say to officials," adds Sir Patrick.
It was a DUP policy to delay the introduction of cost controls to the RHI scheme, accepts Mr Cairns.
But he says it was only him and Dr Crawford working on it and it "probably wouldn't be referenced back to anyone else" other than senior party adviser Mr Johnston.
Image source, Getty ImagesHe tells the inquiry that he was "interrogating" civil servants to establish the latest date that they would allow for the changes to come into effect.
With the belief being that the RHI scheme was being funded by Westminster, it was felt that it was a "valid strategy" to delay the changes, allowing Northern Ireland to receive more money.
"It's better to be spend in Belfast than Bristol," he says.
Sir Patrick points out that Dr Crawford instructed Mr Cairns to call him to discuss details about the RHI scheme and says there is "no written record" even though "quite important things are being talked about".
Image source, PAThe inquiry chairman asks if that would've happened often if "sensitive matters" were being discussed.
The witness says it's "just a reflection of the informality" but he admits that it was an "appalling way of doing things".
On 20 July, Mr Cairns received an email from Arlene Foster' adviser Dr Crawford (below), who had been his predecessor as the DUP adviser at DETI.
Dr Crawford warned him that "the word on the street" was that cuts to RHI scheme subsidies were coming in October and "you are going to get a massive spike of applications before this date".
Mr Cairns says he passed the warning on to a senior DETI official.
Dr Crawford thought funding for any overspend would come from Westminster but he cautioned Mr Cairns to check out the longer term possible consequences for the Northern Ireland budget.
The meeting between Mr Bell, Mr Cairns and the Ulster Farmers' Union "informed the strategy" for the RHI scheme, says the inquiry barrister Donal Lunny.
He points to a line in Mr Cairns' written evidence to the inquiry, in which he says he "explored the possibility of extending the deadline to the latest possible date".
Mr Cairns accepts that seeking to push the addition of cost controls back to the latest possible date was in the interests of farmers.
He says it "didn't occur to me at the time" that the meeting could've informed the department's policy and that he should've intervened to make sure that didn't happen.
Sir Patrick says that there was a "risk" in communicating with a "highly interested particular commercial group" about the scheme.
We've heard during the inquiry sessions with DETI officials that some of them had engaged with some those in the renewable heat industry in the summer of 2015, informing them about the forthcoming changes to the subsidies on offer through the RHI scheme.
Asked if he was aware of that communication, Mr Cairns says he was "only aware of that when it was in the press and I have to say it shocked me at the time", adding that he believes it was "inappropriate".
Image source, RHI InquiryBut there were also two meetings between DETI and the Ulster Farmers' Union around July 2015, one of which was attended by Mr Cairns - during those, the union gave views about the addition of cost controls to the scheme.
Inquiry chairman Sir Patrick Coghlin reminds the witness that farmers were major users of the scheme and that the meeting was "a clear interaction" between "outside stakeholders".