Summary

  • Foreign Secretary James Cleverly says we have to make sure we are good custodians of the public purse

  • Prof Stephen Powis, the medical director of NHS England, says he would like the nurses' pay dispute resolved as quickly as possible

  • Powis also says we are now entering a fifth wave of Covid - adding it will take several years to get on to of the backlog created by the pandemic

  • Royal College of Nursing general secretary Pat Cullen tells Laura that nurses are not going to dig in over the pay row and are open to sitting down and negotiating

  • Meanwhile Labour's Wes Streeting tells the show he doesn't expect the doctors' union the BMA to treat him like "some sort of heretic" for expecting services to improve for patients

  1. Thanks for following alongpublished at 11:08 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    We are going to be finishing our live coverage of Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg soon.

    These updates were written by Jennifer Meierhans and the page was edited by Jeremy Gahagan and Rob Corp. Thank you for joining us and we wish you a super Sunday.

  2. What did our guests have to say?published at 11:01 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    If you're just joining us or need a recap on what we've heard this morning here we go:

    • Medical director of NHS England, Prof Stephen Powis sought to reassure us that patients will be safe if strikes go ahead because there's been lots of preparation and emergency services and treatments like kidney dialysis and chemotherapy will still happen
    • He says we are entering a fifth wave of Covid which could knock plans to get the backlog of appointments to below 18 months by spring off course
    • On strep A he says what's different about these infections is they've come earlier, but there are enough antibiotics and doctors have been asked to lower the threshold for prescribing them to get them to patients with symptoms earlier
    • Foreign Secretary James Cleverly says the Health Secretary Steve Barclay has and will continue to talk to nursing unions but there is a system in place around pay which means the unions must discuss this with their employer the NHS
    • On whether there can be a ceasefire in Ukraine if Russia does not completely withdraw from the country he says a peace settlement must be meaningful and acceptable to the people of Ukraine and that Putin's war must be seen to be unsuccessful
    • Speaking about a protester being beaten up in the grounds of the Chinese consulate in Manchester, he says the government has spoken to the most senior Chinese official and police are investigating
    • Labour's shadow health secretary Wes Streeting says he would be willing to talk to nurses on pay, but would not say whether he would give them a pay rise and said he did not want to make promises he couldn't keep
    • On NHS backlogs he says he would use the private sector as a short-term measure to bring down waiting lists
    • He says the BMA [doctors' union] has "driven me up the wall" because he announced massive investment and doesn't expect them to "treat me like some sort of heretic" for expecting services to improve for patients

  3. Watch: Nurses' union leader urges new talks on paypublished at 10:54 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg panelist Pat Cullen - general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing - called on the government to meet her tomorrow to talk about the ongoing row over pay.

    Nurses in England, Wales and Northern Ireland are set to walk out on strike this Thursday. Emergency care will be unaffected but there is likely to be disruption for patients.

    Cullen told Kuenssberg, talks could begin in the morning - and suggested that they would be willing to suspend the strike if there were "serious" discussions.

    Media caption,

    Nurses' union: Door is open to avoid strikes

  4. Stand out statements from our panellistspublished at 10:49 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    After a busy round of interviews our panellists had their say on what they'd heard so if you're just catching up here are their standout statements:

    • The big moment came when boss of the nurses' union Pat Cullen said this week's strike action could be paused if ministers agreed to talk about pay. She hinted that the Royal College of Nursing would be willing to accept less than their opening pay demand
    • Asda boss Sir Stuart Rose said supplies of antibiotics for strep A at his pharmacies were "thinner than we’d like" but he said they were coping and the 250 pharmacies would get through it
    • Historian Simon Sebag Montefiore says Prince Harry and Meghan's Netflix documentary was "very unexciting... somewhat boring and deeply un-momentous" and that Harry "hasn't really got that much to complain about"
  5. Watch: Minister insists nurses' pay is a matter for NHSpublished at 10:45 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Foreign Secretary James Cleverly told Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg that the government has to be "good custodians" of the public purse which is why it cannot agree to nurses' demands for a pay rise of the current inflation rate plus 5% - about 15%.

    Cleverly insisted that the dispute - which will see nurses stage the biggest strike for 100 years this week and next - should be resolved between the unions and their employer - the NHS.

    Media caption,

    NHS pay talks 'between union and employer'

  6. The winter of discontent looks like it's herepublished at 10:35 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Laura Kuenssberg
    Presenter, Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg

    Unless something significant changes in the government's attitude to the nurses' strikes this week, history is about to be made for all the wrong reasons, with a major walk out of RCN members for the first time in this way for 100 years.

    NHS England medical director Prof Sir Stephen Powis admitted that means real disruption and consequences for patients, although the health service will make its best efforts to keep things as safe as possible for patients.

    A couple of weeks ago on the show we asked if there would be a new winter of discontent.

    Without something unexpected happening, I'm afraid it's here.

    Prof Sir Steve Powis
  7. Panel see need for talks over NHS and public sector paypublished at 10:30 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    As Laura's noted, that was a busy 60 minutes of Sunday morning television.

    Just before the show ended we heard what the panel had to say about what they heard from the politicians.

    RCN chief Pat Cullen says she feels like if she closed her eyes she could be listening to a game of pass the parcel.

    The government sets out the pay review guidelines so it has to be the health secretary's responsibility to negotiate pay with me or through the conciliation service Acas, she said.

    Asda chairman and retail expert Stuart Rose said there was no substitute for talking.

    And historian Simon Sebag Montefiore said, when talking about NHS reform, the two parties are very similar and need to be honest about the compromises needed to make it happen.

    Touching on the programme's other subject, he told Kuenssberg we need to be a lot less naive about China and a lot more vigilant.

  8. Will nurses accept a lower pay offer than they're demanding?published at 10:18 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Laura Kuenssberg
    Presenter, Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg

    Foreign Secretary James Cleverly

    That was a super busy hour, where dramatically the boss of the nurses' union made an offer to the government to pause this week's strike action if ministers agree to talk about pay, crucially hinting that the Royal College of Nursing would be willing to accept less than their opening pay demand.

    Foreign Secretary James Cleverly wasn't having any of it, suggesting even that it wasn't really up to the government to sort it out.

    He knows though, as do the bosses of the NHS - one of them, Steve Powis, was in the studio with us - that it is in truth very much up to the government to decide what to do.

  9. Streeting criticises doctors' union over NHS reformspublished at 10:00 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Kuenssberg asks what Labour's Wes Streeting would do for the NHS if he became health secretary

    He says "the BMA [doctors' union] has driven me up the wall" because he announced massive investment and doesn't expect them to "treat me like some sort of heretic" for expecting services to improve for patients.

    We've got the biggest crisis in the NHS' history - waiting lists, ambulances taking an hour for stroke and heart attack victims, we've got to ask questions on how that money is spent, he says.

    We are spending far more on late diagnosis and threfore more expensive treatment, he says.

    There are empty beds in the private sector he says. There is a two-tier system where people who can afford to pay get seen and those who can't are left lagging behind.

    I would rather as a short-term measure use the private sector to bring down waiting lists at no cost to people who can't afford to pay, he adds.

    Wes Streeting and Laura Kuenssberg
  10. Labour won't make promises it can't keep on nurses' pay - Streetingpublished at 09:54 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Next up is Labour's shadow health secretary Wes Streeting and Kuenssberg asks whether nurses and ambulance workers would be striking if there was a Labour government.

    Streeting says no because nurses said if the government agrees to negotiate there will be no strikes this week.

    He says "that's an offer too good to refuse" and he can't understand why Foreign Secretary James Cleverley sat in the studio and refused their offer.

    Asked if Labour would pay nurses more he says they would certainly be prepared to talk about pay, terms and conditions and how the pay review system works.

    Pushed on whether Labour would give nurses more money he says "we would be willing to talk... the worst thing I could possibly do is make promises we can't keep".

    Wes StreetingImage source, PA Media
  11. Cleverly asked whether China is number one threat to UKpublished at 09:51 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Foreign Secretary James Cleverly

    We're hearing from Foreign Secretary James Cleverly, who is asked about China.

    Kuenssberg shows a tweet from Prime Minister Rishi Sunak that states China is our number one threat.

    Cleverly says: "China has threatened a number of those foundation stones that we feel are important and we will work with new friends and old friends to protect what we need to."

    We have seen some really inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour in Manchester - he's talking about pro democracy protester who was taken inside the consulate and beaten up.

    Asked what is being done in response to that he says they have called in the most senior Chinese official in the UK and made it clear this is not acceptable and Greater Manchester Police is investigating.

    Asked about secret Chinese police stations in the UK - he says they are checking the facts and "we will move quickly but we must demonstrate that we have done it right by abiding by the law"

    "Those are the values we are seeking to defend and that's the way we need to demonstrate what we are doing," he says.

  12. Cleverly: Right that Putin held accountable for Ukraine warpublished at 09:44 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    James Cleverly speaks with Laura Kuenssberg

    Moving on to Ukraine - and Kuenssberg asks if there can be a ceasefire if Russia does not completely withdraw from the country.

    Cleverly says it's not right for the UK or any other country to start dictating what the terms of a peace settlement might be.

    "Ultimately we do want to see this resolved, we do want to see peace in Ukraine," he says.

    But it needs to be meaningful and acceptable to Ukrainians as they are the ones who are suffering, he adds.

    He says the UK needs to get the message across that "aggressions does not pay off - you cannot benefit from brutalising your neighbour", but Russian President Vladimir Putin has to be seen to be unsuccessful.

    He says when he was in Kyiv he heard claims of rape and sexual violence being used as weapons on the battlefield and very credible claims Ukrainian children are being forcibly sent to Russia to be adopted.

    "There absolutely must be accountability" he says and they will work out what the mechanism for this is.

  13. Government does want to speak to nurses - Cleverlypublished at 09:39 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Foreign Secretary James Cleverly

    Foreign Secretary James Cleverly is up now and is talking about the nurses' strikes.

    He says Health Secretary Steve Barclay has spoken to union leaders but ultimately salary negotiations are done between unions and the employer - in this case the NHS.

    We recognise the importance of what they do but we have to make sure we are good custodians of the public purse, Cleverly says.

    Kuenssberg says that the RCN's Pat Cullen wants to talk to Barclay about pay and asks if this will happen.

    "What he said was very clear of course we want to engage of course we want to get this resolved," he says.

    "Steve will speak, he says he will speak but ultimately there is a system in place."

    Pushed on whether Barclay will speak to unions about pay or risk severe disruption to the NHS, he says "we have processes for a reason".

  14. Simon Sebag Montefiore: Prince Harry doesn't have much to complain aboutpublished at 09:35 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Moving on the to Harry and Meghan Netflix documentary, and Kuenssberg asks Simon Sebag Montefiore if the couple were humiliating the Royal Family.

    He says the programme was "very unexciting... somewhat boring and deeply un-momentous".

    He says "one needs to have some sense of perspective here".

    "When one looks at Prince Harry, in an LA mansion, endless red-carpet galas and a reality show on Netflix I think he hasn't really got that much to complain about," he says.

  15. Nurses' pay dispute not about lining pockets with gold - Cullenpublished at 09:32 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Kuenssberg asks Pat Cullen if she's concerned about losing the public's support for nurses as other workers also strike and effectively put the country in lockdown.

    She says: "I would never take the public for granted, but I am concerned for the public who cannot get decent services that they're entitled to."

    She says: "It's not about lining nurses pockets with gold it's about standing up for patients."

    Historian Simon Sebag Montefiore says the NHS is a sacred institution that we need to reform.

  16. Despicable that nurses are lowest-paid in Europe - Cullenpublished at 09:31 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Pat Cullen

    RCN chief Pat Cullen responds to Stephen Powis' interview and his comments that industrial action by nurses puts the Covid recovery at risk.

    The general secretary of the Royal College of Nursing says "what he didn't say is the one day of action nurses are going to take on Thursday hasn't created the 7.2 million people sitting on our waiting lists"

    She adds it's "despicable" that UK nurses are paid the lowest in Europe: "What way is that to run a country?" she asks.

  17. Stuart Rose: Let's not make NHS crisis any worsepublished at 09:28 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Responding to Prof Powis' interview, panelist Stuart Rose tells Kuenssberg: "There's no doubt about it nurses should be paid more money the question is how much and how do we do it?"

    He says this is not a new crisis we've got too many people trying to get in, too many people trying to get out and NHS staff are working 24/7 to get it sorted but we need to end bureacracy.

    "We don't want to make this crisis any worse," he says.

    In Asda - the store chain he chairs - we are dealing with customers who want to have a nice Christmas but they are having to cut back. he say his customers are £150 a week worse off.

  18. We need more doctors and nurses, says Powispublished at 09:24 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Prof Sir Stephen Powis

    Kuenssberg asks about what she says is the scandal of people dying in ambulances

    Prof Sir Stephen Powis replies that the government is putting in a national fall service so elderly people who fall at home can be treated there instead of going to hospital.

    On the issue of tackling the shortage of staff in the health service, he says "the NHS absolutely needs more staff".

    This is because it has 100,000 vacancies and we have fewer doctors per head of the population compared with other countries.

    He says he hopes to publish a long-term workforce plan in the spring.

    "If you ask me personally when it comes to doctors we need more medical student places," he says.

    He adds that he would increase these places from 1,000 to 2,000 and would create them in areas of the country where there are staff shortages so people will put down roots there and work in those communities.

  19. Powis says plenty of antibiotics to tackle strep A outbreakspublished at 09:20 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Turning to the strep A outbreak now and Kuenssberg asks whether there is a shortage of antibiotics?

    Prof Powis says it's not unusual to see cases of Group A strep but we are seeing infections earlier this year - at the start of winter - which is why they've alerted parents and healthcare professionals to look out for symptoms.

    These include a sore throat, and scarlet fever symptoms which include a rash that looks like sandpaper and a swollen red bumpy strawberry tongue. Anyone concerned should call 111, he says.

    "We have plenty of antibiotics," he says and have been asking doctors to prescribe them earlier.

    They've been restocking pharmacies and the Department of Health is working hard to make sure supplies get through "literally as we speak", he says.

    Prof Sir Stephen Powis and Laura Kuenssberg
  20. Powis warns fifth wave of Covid on the waypublished at 09:15 Greenwich Mean Time 11 December 2022

    Moving on to NHS backlogs, and Prof Powis says the NHS has been making progress and the ambition is to reduce waiting times to below 18 months by the spring.

    But this could be knocked off course by flu or a new strain of Covid - he says we are now entering a fifth wave of that virus and there has been a 50% increase in patients in hospital with flu, he says.

    Eventually Covid will become a seasonal infection but that hasn't happened yet and it will take several years to get on top of the backlog caused by the pandemic.