Sunak embraces the noise he has generatedpublished at 09:18 British Summer Time 21 September 2023

09:18 BST 21 September 2023

Chris Mason
Political editor

For all his words in the 20 or so minutes the prime minister was on the Today Programme, for me, a handful stuck out.

“For those who disagree with me, the question is for them.”

Rishi Sunak chose to embrace this argument and so is embracing the noise it is generating.

For much of the last year he has avoided picking fights, especially with his own party. But he and his team have concluded now is the time to gamble.

Let me give you a flavour of the texts I got while listening to the prime minister.

One Conservative MP said: “It is as if I can hear a collective sigh of relief around millions of kitchen tables across the country, at last the Tory party has finally stirred.”

And here’s another text, reflecting the reaction among some in business: “My inbox is exploding. People have made long-term investment decisions here. The Tory party is destroying what was left of its business credibility.”

The key question now is what people around the country make of it – and particularly those the Conservative Party wants to keep the support of.

One senior Tory figure said to me private polling suggested these ideas were particularly popular among people who voted Conservative for the first time at the last general election.

They are a vital slice of the electorate come polling day.

Rishi Sunak was questioned on Today this morning about why he said he had ruled out a so-called "meat tax".

Asked by Nick Robinson where this proposal had come from, the PM said the government's Climate Change Committee had called for ministers to "implement measures" for "accelerated change in diets".

As pointed out by the i paper's Paul Waugh, external, the Climate Change Committee in its report calls for "low-cost, low-regret" action to reduce meat consumption - not a proposed meat tax.

The full recommendation from the report, external, published in June, is: "Take low-cost, low-regret actions to encourage a 20% shift away from all meat by 2030, rising to 35% by 2050, and a 20% shift from dairy products by 2030, demonstrating leadership in the public sector whilst improving health."

Sunak has been on Radio 4's Today programme in the last hour where he was questioned by Nick Robinson about his changes to country's plan to reach net zero.

• "I believe in net zero and I want to deliver it," Rishi Sunak said, despite Robinson quoting the government's independent climate adviser saying the PM was indulging in "wishful thinking"
• Sunak repeated his belief about taking "a pragmatic and realistic" approach to net zero
• Robinson asked if a country could meet net zero if it still had homes with gas boilers in by the year 2050, but the PM said things had to change "in a measured way"
• Robinson questioned Sunak on having "a Liz Truss approach", by not listening to criticism, to which the PM said ordinary families shouldn't have to pay more for net zero
• The PM was asked why he ruled out a "meat tax" and car sharing when neither had been recommended. Sunak said government advisers said there needed to be "an element of compulsion"

Sunak is now asked whether "this is the real you" - whether this is Sunak saying what he really thinks, as his allies have suggested.

Will he be ripping up other promises from past governments?

"What I'm interested in doing is changing the direction of our country," says Sunak - saying he has brought stability and confidence in the first year in the job.

What he wants to do now is "change the direction of our country", he says - which means "we have to change the way we do politics".

"I'm not going to be deterred from doing what I believe is right for the long-term future of our children," he says.

And with that, the interview is over.

“People know that if something is too good to be true, then it is not true,” says Nick Robinson, quoting Rishi Sunak’s resignation letter to Boris Johnson.

“That’s not what I’m saying,” says Sunak - insisting he was “very explicit” that the transition process won’t be easy.

“I believe in net zero and I want to deliver it,” he says - adding “chasing the short term headlines” is not the right approach without a plan.

Sunak is questioned over claims he made yesterday that he was scrapping proposals - with the interviewer asking whether some proposals had even existed in the first place.

For example, Sunak said he was scrapping a proposed tax on meat. Where was this proposal originally, Robinson asks him.

Sunak says there were a range of things proposed by lots of different people - and the CCC talked specifically in their report about an accelerated shift away from dairy and meat in their report.

But interviewer Robinson says he spoke to the CCC earlier and they said they never proposed a tax on meat.

Robinson asks about a proposal for compulsory ride-sharing which Sunak says he scrapped - and Sunak says that the CCC also mentioned "ride-sharing solutions" in their report.

And asked about a proposal on whether the government was planning on making people have seven bins - something Sunak said he scrapped - he says that was in the environment act.

"There's a very clear statement there," Sunak says.

“Let’s turn to boilers now,” says Nick Robinson.

It seems to me that it will still be possible to install a gas boiler until 2035, meaning they could still be in place in 2050, says the host - asking if the UK can still therefore hit its net zero target.

Sunak says the average life of a boiler is about 15 years - so that is about right to hit the 2050 target.

He says these things can be done in a “measured way” while being “proportionate and pragmatic”.

No one is suggesting families should fork out £10,000 pounds and you know it, replies Robinson.

Sunak argues there are policies in place for property upgrades and energy upgrades kicking in in two years.

"These are very real things that people were proposing," says Sunak.

Sunak is asked whether, by going against the advice of the independent Climate Change Committee, he is "doing what Liz Truss did".

Truss ignored the advice she didn't want to hear, says the interviewer Robinson - and isn't Sunak saying let's ignore the CCC?

"I'm happy to get opinions and advice from everybody and everyone's entitled to their view," replies Sunak.

"We're very confident being in government with all the information at our disposal, that we're on track to hit all our targets.

"Lots of people disagree with me - the questions for them, they should explain to the country why they think it's right ordinary families up and down the country should have to fork out five, ten, fifteen thousand pounds, to make the transition earlier than is necessary."

He says he doesn't think it's necessary to hit targets which are "more ambitious than anyone else".

Nick Robinson points out the prime minister has an independent climate change committee to advise him on targets.

He says the reason they exist is because politicians might not be trusted to “mark their own homework”.

He says Chris Stark, who heads up that committee, called Sunak’s Wednesday speech “wishful thinking” and said the UK doesn’t currently have the policy package needed to hit its targets.

Sunak says he agrees with the committee when it says you can’t “wish your way” to net zero, and that the secretary of state is in charge of putting proposals in place.

On that point, he says the government has “absolute belief” it will still hit its targets.

“We have consistently over delivered… despite everyone saying we were behind,” he adds.

Nick Robinson begins by referencing a speech that Margaret Thatcher gave to the UN General Assembly in the 1980s warning of the "insidious danger" of climate change.

Why are you slowing down efforts to combat it, Sunak is asked.

Sunak asserts that he is "absolutely not" slowing down efforts to tackle climate change. He says the UK's targets are more ambitious than most industrialised economies.

Repeating a theme of his speech yesterday, he says he is not chasing short-term popularity, and changing the target dates as he has done is the right thing to do for the public.

Image source, Reuters

We're about to hear from the prime minister on BBC Radio 4's Today programme as he hits the airwaves to defend his changes to green policies.

Click the audio icon at the top of the page to listen live as he is questioned by Nick Robinson live from Downing Street.

Business and Trade Secretary Kemi Badenoch insists that many people are "welcoming" the government's new stance on climate change policies.

Speaking on BBC Breakfast moments ago, she said the target of reaching net zero in 2050 still stood but measures had to be "fair and proportionate" and the public had to be able to "bear them."

"What we're not doing is taking away people's choice where they can't afford it," she told the programme.

Badenoch went on to criticise stricter policies on reducing emissions as championed by the Green Party and others.

She claimed that "would mean nobody will be driving. Nobody will be heating their houses. You can get to net zero that way, but that would be a bonkers way."

Image source, UK Parliament

Yesterday was a bad day for “our economy, our prosperity and for Britain," Ed Miliband, Labour's shadow climate change and net zero secretary, has said.

Speaking on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme, Miliband said the initial 2030 target to phase out new petrol and diesel cars would save money for consumers as electric cars would be cheaper by then.

“At the very first hurdle the PM has done something which will load more costs on the British people," he said.

Miliband added he's worried about the signal the move sends to firms which have invested billions of pounds already in the green sector.

He also criticised the government's record on insulation, repeating that it had "no plan" even though the UK has the worst insulated homes in Europe.

He said a Labour government would make the transition easier for the consumer by understanding where green energy in cheaper - like in cars or energy - and where the government needs to step in.

Michael Race
BBC Business Reporter

The UK car industry has raised concerns the decision to delay the ban on the purchase of new petrol and diesel car sales could put off drivers switching to electric.

Prime Minister Rishi Sunak confirmed the planned ban was being pushed back five years from 2030 to 2035.

A drivers campaign group said it was"delighted" by the delay, arguing the policy costs outweigh the benefits.

Fair Fuel UK said the original plan was "always doomed to be dropped".

But Ford, one of the UK's most popular car brands, selling more than 126,000 vehicles in 2022, said the change would "undermine" the move to electric.

Read more: Warning petrol ban delay may hit electric car sales

Emma Pinchbeck, the chief executive of industry body Energy UK, says her members are concerned about "uncertainty" in the market following the prime minister's speech.

Some Energy UK members will be pleased she conceded, but most are expressing "concern".

"Above all, what investors like is certainty," she tells BBC Radio 4's Today programme. While net zero is about tackling climate change, it is also a “£100bn opportunity for the UK”, she says - and now her members are worried.

She contests Sunak's view that pushing the net zero target will ease the burden on consumers. These targets were not about consumers but are a signal to the industry to “sort its life out and go faster rather than impacting the public”, she says.

She adds that the costs Sunak mentioned in his speech - such as those around heat pumps - were "quite far out of whack" from reality.

Leading climate scientist Sir Bob Watson says the government is watering down green policies to "buy votes" at the next election.

Watson, who used to head up the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), told Today on Radio 4 that he totally disagrees with Rishi Sunak's approach and believes an "immediate reduction in emissions is essential to the globe".

"The policies the prime minister has outlined can only make the problem worse," he said.

Image source, Reuters

There's been a lot of talk about how car manufacturers will be affected by the government's plan to push back the date from which new petrol and diesel vehicles will be banned from being sold - which will now come in five years later in 2035.

Jaguar Land Rover, which announced hundreds of new jobs in the West Midlands a few days ago, welcomed the change, calling it "pragmatic" and said it brings the UK in line with other nations.

The company says it is committed to be fully net zero by 2039 and is looking forward to "building the much needed infrastructure" to help people move to an "exciting electric future".

Chris Stark, the chief executive of the UK's Climate Change Committee, has been on Radio 4's Today programme where he said net zero goals will be harder to achieve under Sunak's new "softer package" of green policies.

Stark leads the independent authority on tackling climate change and said it's now "difficult to escape the idea we're not moving backwards" on the green agenda.

He added Sunak was guilty of "wishful thinking" if the PM thought key net zero goals could be achieved with the revised measures.

Stark added: "I think the government needs to look again at the policies, we need to do more, there's no real question of that.

"So yesterday was not about doing more it was about doing less."

The changes certainly seem to make the current targets much harder to achieve - as any extra carbon costs would have to be balanced by more savings in other areas.

And how much carbon the UK can use in coming years has already been set down in carbon budgets.

Piers Forster, the Climate Change Committee’s chair, said Sunak’s announcement was “likely to take the UK further away from being able to meet its legal commitments“.

"This, coupled with the recent unsuccessful offshore wind auction, gives us concern," and "more action is needed," he added.