We still need to know where Covid came from, Johnson tells inquiry

1. In his final comments to the Covid inquiry, Boris Johnson says the world still needs to find out where the virus came from
2. Johnson says it's not a matter for the UK inquiry - but the British public "need to be elucidated about how this thing originated"
3. Earlier, the ex-PM said Dominic Cummings' trip to Barnard Castle in 2020 was a "bad moment"
4. But he said the idea of mass rule-breaking within Downing Street was a "million miles away" from the truth
5. He also denied ever wanting to "let the virus rip" during the pandemic - and said, if the idea was raised, it was merely to test the argument
6. And he defended the Eat Out to Help Out scheme, which the government introduced in summer 2020 - saying it was not a "particular gamble"

A day of searching questions as Johnson goes back to 2020

Hugh Pym

Health editor

It was a day of searching questions for Boris Johnson, mostly on events in the latter part of 2020.

The inquiry counsel focused on events surrounding the autumn lockdown, pressing Johnson on why he hadn’t gone for a September circuit-breaker as advised by leading officials.

This is developing as a key theme for this phase of the inquiry. Johnson said he had preferred a regional approach to avoid penalising lower infection areas - it was “worth a try,” as he said more than once.

But he had to admit that the tiered approach in England eventually failed.

The former prime minister was asked by more than one lawyer to explain why in private messages at the time he had reportedly said “let the virus rip” and referred to the elderly who died with Covid as having had a “good innings”. One asked whether this was appropriate for a prime minister.

And, challenged by the KC representing ethnic minority organisations, Johnson admitted he had not seen a Public Health England report in 2020 on disparities and inequalities.

Many of the bereaved and others represented will feel the hearing confirmed their suspicions and previous criticisms of Johnson.

But it will be up to the inquiry chair to weigh up his evidence along with that of many others.

Johnson's evidence: A recap

Tara Mewawalla

Live reporter

The second – and final – day of Boris Johnson’s questioning has come to an end. Here are the main lines from the past 48 hours:

Today

• Eat Out to Help Out (the virus?): Johnson defended the summer 2020 policy, saying it was not a "particular gamble" - and he was “surprised” when Sir Chris Whitty called it "eat out to help the virus"

• Let it rip: Extracts from Sir Patrick Vallance’s diaries quoted Johnson suggesting a “let the virus rip” approach. Johnson insisted he had to "challenge the consensus"
• Tier system: Johnson said the regional tier system was “worth trying” in September 2020, as an alternative to a circuit breaker, but that it later “ran out of road”
• Schools: And he insisted the government was “desperate” to keep schools open in January 2021, but that schools were a "reservoir" of infection
• Barnard Castle revisited: Dominic Cummings' trip from London to County Durham was a “bad moment”, the ex-PM accepted
• Partygate: But he said the idea of mass rule-breaking in Downing Street was a "million miles" from the truth - even if he could, in hindsight, have been stricter with his team
• Emotions peaked: Johnson also opened up about his time in hospital with Covid in April 2020, where he realised some middle-aged men “quite like me” would not survive

Yesterday

• Late to twig: Johnson said he should have recognised the seriousness of Covid sooner - though he defended not chairing five Cobra meetings in early 2020
• Tragic 2020: He fought back tears as he recalled “tragic, tragic 2020” - and apologised to the victims of Covid for his government's mistakes
• Long Covid: And - on Wednesday and today - he regretted suggesting long Covid was "bollocks" in a handwritten note on a document from October 2020

That's it for this week - from 10:30 on Monday, former chancellor and current Prime Minister Rishi Sunak will answer the inquiry's questions.

Johnson rejects Covid policy was 'let it rip' across UK

Johnson visibly angry in early exchanges

Jim Reed

Health reporter

It felt like we saw a more subdued Boris Johnson in this final afternoon of questioning. That, perhaps, is to be expected after ten hours on the witness stand.

This morning though the former PM was clearly angry at the approach taken by the lead counsel, Hugo Keith KC.

At one point, diary entries written by his former chief scientific adviser were read out in quick succession.

Sir Patrick Vallace, in his private notes, said Johnson had at times wanted to "let the virus rip" and was "obsessed with older people accepting their fate".

"Rubbish" - interupted Johnson - who accused Mr Keith of "culling accounts" from other people's "jotting in meetings".

He then appeared to fight back tears when he brought up his own time in intensive care with Covid.

Earlier Johnson provided a robust defence of his decision not to impose a circuit-breaker lockdown in September 2020.

He was worried the country would end up being bounced into more mini lockdowns with no end in sight.

Instead he was "full of hope" that the tier system of regional restrictions would "save us". Covid cases kept rising though and he realised he was "running out of road".

On 31 October 2020 Johnson ordered a second national lockdown in England, although he did not accept that decision was made "too late".

Johnson closes by asking for answers on where Covid came from

Reuters

And with a round of questions from Brian Stanton, representing the British Medical Association, Boris Johnson's two-day hearing is brought to a close.

In a break from the usually abrupt ending to these sessions, Johnson offers some closing remarks, telling the inquiry: "I'm rather sad it's over."

He adds: "I may not see you again...but I do hope that at the end of all this, there will be a few things the inquiry in part will be able to think about."

He mentions first the "absolutely critical" issues of health and social care - urging the inquiry to "give a kick to the powers that be to make sure that we really address that".

His second plea is learning more aobout the "real origins" Covid-19, which he adds "will be very important".

The British people "need to be elucidated about how this thing originated" he says - although he accepts it's not a matter for this inquiry.

Inquiry chair Baroness Heather Hallett replies: "Mr Johnson, you set my terms of reference," to laughter.

We were 'determined' to get people back to work in 2021 - Johnson

Samuel Jacobs, representing the Trades Union Congress, is speaking now.

He's asking Johnson about a meeting in July 2021, when there was a discussion about returning to workplaces.

He quotes a note written by Sir Patrick Vallance, in which the chief scientific adviser said Johnson called people "workshy" and "malingering" and stated that people needed to get back to work.

Johnson is asked if using this "dismissive" approach towards meetings with unions was wrong.

He says he was "very keen" to get people back to work "if we possibly could".

"This is July 2021. We've vaccinated a huge proportion of the population," Johnson continues, reiterating that he was "determined" to get people in work again.

Why was there no mention of domestic abuse until 2021, Johnson asked

It's now the turn of Liz Davies KC, representing Solace Women's Aid and Southall Black Sisters, who's asking questions about the government's support of victims of domestic violence throughout the pandemic.

Davies asks Johnson why the government made no specific address throughout 2020 to say people could leave their homes if they were at risk of domestic abuse while under lockdown.

The earliest mention, she notes, was in January 2021.

Johnson replies: "In retrospect, we should have given consideration to mentioning that issue earlier."

Johnson denies that he was 'shamefully ageist' against the elderly

Johnson is being questioned by Danny Friedman KC from the Disabled People Organisations.

We heard earlier that Johnson, during the pandemic, suggested the government should "let the virus rip" or let the elderly "accept their fate" - he insisted he was merely testing the arguments.

He is now asked by Friedman: "Were you not being shamefully ageist against those in later life and normalising their premature death?"

Johnson denies this. He says he was doing "his best" to "reflect a debate that was very live".

He says a "great number" of older people supported his views on this.

Schools were 'big reservoirs of risk' - Johnson

Up next is Rajiv Menon KC, asking questions on behalf of several children's rights organisations.

He says that, according to Johnson's witness statement, the reopening of schools was one of his key priorities in the summer of 2020 - when the first lockdown was being lifted.

Menon asks the ex-PM why, then, schools did not reopen on 4 July 2020 when pubs, beauty salons, non-essential retail and other establishments were allowed to.

Johnson says schools were "big potential reservoirs of risk" and "younger people can easily transmit the virus to older and more vulnerable people".

Menon replies: "You think schools are larger reservoirs of risk than pubs and restaurants?"

Johnson says the government was thinking "about how to do things, how to sequence things".

He adds: "We thought it sensible given where we were in the school calendar to resume to the normal return of schools."

Johnson quizzed again about dismissing long Covid

Anthony Metzer KC, representing the Long Covid group, is speaking now.

He refers to a piece of evidence seen yesterday - a report on long Covid from October 2020.

On it, Johnson wrote "bollocks".

Metzer asks him if he wanted advice on long Covid, why did he not ask for it to be provided?

Johnson says he wishes to "recognise the hurt" that people suffering from long Covid must have felt from his words, but that he did ask for reports to be provided, "much later on".

Covid-19 Inquiry

Johnson asked if institutional racism to blame for high death rate among minorities

Covid Inquiry

Next to ask the questions is Leslie Thomas KC, the lawyer representing the Federation of Ethinic Minority Healthcare Organisations (FEMHO).

He's focusing on the challenges faced by ethnic minority healthcare workers and communities during the pandemic.

Johnson says a "great deal of work was done" by the government on finding out why such groups faced greater impacts from the virus - describing this fact as "heartbreaking".

Thomas puts it to Johnson that the disproportionate death rate among such groups was due to "institutional racism" in the health service.

Johnson says he is not sure he can agree with that.

Thomas asks if he has seen a Public Health England report which came to this conclusion. Johnson says he hasn't.

Should Johnson have announced Sturgeon's rules?

Nick Eardley

Political correspondent

Depending on where you are reading this, you might have a different experience of Covid press conferences.

In England, it was the Downing Street press conference that many watched daily. But around the UK, devolved leaders had their own and these were often more relevant if rules were diverging.

Boris Johnson thinks that was a problem - because there was on occasion mixed messaging from different political leaders. He has singled out Nicola Sturgeon.

Johnson just suggested that in future, it should be up to the UK government to announce all the rules.

He seems to be suggesting devolved administrations set their own rules, but that the prime minister would announce them.

It's highly unlikely that devolved leaders - often from different parties - would agree.

Tension between devolved leaders and Westminster was 'no secret'

Nick Eardley

Political correspondent

It was no secret that there was tensions between Westminster and some devolved leaders during the pandemic.

The Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon was one of those who frequently criticised the decisions coming from London.

I covered this at the time and remember both sides criticising the other; Scotland believed Westminster was taking bad decisions, particularly on messaging.

The UK government believed Edinburgh was trying to get ahead of the game by having earlier press conferences and feared they were leaking. After a fairly unified approach in the early weeks, there was a growing tension over the next months.

This is being discussed at the moment.

Despite well-documented issues, Johnson insists he had a friendly relationship with Sturgeon. He's also argued in his evidence that a "unified" message was preferable and that topics often became too "political".

The nature of devolved policy making in the UK though meant that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland were often making their own health decisions.

SNP and UK government relationship examined

The Scottish bereaved families representative is talking now.

Claire Mitchell KC is questioning the relationship between the SNP and UK government. Johnson is asked whether there was a "reluctance" to have the Scottish first minister - at the time, Nicola Sturgeon - contact him during the pandemic.

Johnson says that he has "no ill will" towards Sturgeon and that the two "got on very well". He then adds that that as much as he "loves the SNP", politically there was a certain amount of back and forth between he and them.

And when asked whether he should have included the devolved administrations more in meetings, Johnson says that he was worried they would come out of "confidential meetings" and talk to their own media about what was going on.

Johnson has previously talked about needing "leak-proof system" between the administrations for emergencies, Mitchell says, and asks him how establishing such a system might be done.

Johnson tells the inquiry he doesn't know "at present" because this is "difficult", but "that's the ideal".

Did the Welsh 'firebreak' work?

Jim Reed

Health reporter

BBC

This morning, we heard evidence that the Westminster government had decided not to put in place a short-term "circuit-breaker" lockdown in England in September 2020.

Johnson said England's Health Secretary Matt Hancock did not support the idea, and he was worried the restrictions would need to be reimposed multiple times through the autumn.

In Wales, where the Labour-run Welsh government could make its own decisions, a "firebreak" lockdown was imposed for 17 days from October 23.

Earlier today Johnson claimed it was not clear that measure worked.

In fact the data showed that case rates in Wales did fall after the short lockdown was imposed, although the number of infections quickly bounced back again when restrictions were released.

The Welsh firebreak was in place when Covid cases were already running at a high level, and the Welsh government faced some criticism at the time for removing restrictions too quickly.

Should Wales also have had a four-week lockdown?

Bethan Harris, who represents Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice Cymru, is up next.

She brings us to the autumn and winter of 2020, highlighting the difference between Wales' 17-day fire breaker (similar to a circuit-breaker - a short lockdown) from 23 October to 9 November and England's four-week lockdown from 5 November to 2 December.

She asks whether there was any thought around the idea that England could have gone into lockdown alongside Wales on 23 October.

Johnson says he cannot remember "specific conversations" but that he is "sure we were thinking the whole time" about these options.

Harris then asks whether he believes Wales' fire breaker should have been four weeks or been announced earlier.

Johnson says it is "striking" that the two nations ended up "doing the same sort of thing" and were "more in step than sometimes the politics seemed to suggest".

Hearing from the bereaved

Jim Reed

Health reporter

One of the criticisms of this inquiry is that it has not heard in enough detail from the families of those who lost their lives to Covid.

In each section - or module - a single member from each of the national groups representing the bereaved has been chosen to give evidence.

In early October, for example, Catriona Myles from Northern Ireland Covid-19 Bereaved Families for Justice was called to speak.

Her 67-year-old father Gerry McLarnon died on 23 December 2020 in Antrim Area hospital after being diagnosed with Covid.

Bereaved groups had been pressing hard for more representation.

But Baroness Hallett has indicated that would take too much time. Instead, a 15-minute video has been played at the start of each module featuring people affected and their relatives.

This afternoon, lawyers representing the four national bereaved groups will also have an chance to question Johnson directly for a limited time, as they have other witnesses.

Johnson grilled over No 10 Christmas parties

Brenda Campbell KC, representing Northern Ireland Covid Bereaved Families for Justice, takes Boris Johnson to task over the so-called Partygate scandal.

She references in particular the "several Christmas events" held in No 10 and across Whitehall in December 2020 as families mourned the loss of loved ones to Covid.

The events she references are a wine and cheese party, a Secret Santa event and a Zoom quiz - which one of Campbell's clients described as "galling and sickening".

Campbell asks Johnson: "Could you have done more to stop it?"

Johnson replies: "Given what I knew at the time, the answer to that is no.

"What I possibly should have done is issued general instructions to people to be mindful of rules and how it might appear."

For more details on the events Campbell is referring to, you can read our full timeline of the lockdown parties here.

Inquiry resumes

Covid Inquiry

And we're back.

Boris Johnson is now facing questions from Brenda Campbell KC, who represents bereaved families from Northern Ireland. We'll bring you updates as the inquiry goes on.

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