Summary

  • Nicola Sturgeon has been giving evidence to a Holyrood committee on the controversial CalMac ferries contract

  • The first minister began the session by expressing her regret to island communities affected by long delays to the construction of two new ferries

  • She also denied suggestions that the contract being given to businessman Jim McColl had been "jobs for the boys"

  • A recent BBC Disclosure documentary revealed how leaked documents suggested the process may have been rigged

  • The vessels are five years late and could end up being £200m overbudget

  • The public audit committee is investigating the delay in delivering the ferries that are being built at the Ferguson Marine yard in Inverclyde

  • An Audit Scotland probe was unable to establish why the £97m order was given to the yard without the usual guarantees

  1. FM gives evidence on ferries: The key pointspublished at 12:25 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Committee convener Richard Leonard thanks the first minister for her evidence and draws the public part of this meeting to a close.

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    Here's a summary of what we learned today:

    • The FM rejected any suggestion that the contract to build two new CalMac ferries was "inappropriately steered" towards the Ferguson's shipyard
    • She also denied the contract was given to businessman Jim McColl as "jobs for the boys"
    • Nicola Sturgeon told MSPs it was "absolutely and categorically" not the case that the bidding process was unfair
    • She began the session by expressing her regret to island communities affected by long delays to the construction of two new ferries
    • The FM said if the Scottish government had not nationalised Ferguson Marine the shipyard would have closed
    • She said: "I am accountable and responsible for everything that happens in the Scottish government's name"

    That's all from the live page team today. Thanks for being with us.

  2. Analysis

    FM accepts responsibility - but denies she is to blamepublished at 12:20 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    David Henderson
    BBC Scotland Business and Transport Correspondent

    One word which notably did not cross the first minister's lips today was "sorry".

    While Nicola Sturgeon accepts responsibility for what went wrong on her watch, she denies she is to blame.

    That's a hard balance to strike, especially since this ferry crisis has happened on her watch - all the way back to late 2014, when she took on the top job.

    Within a year, the contract to build two ferries had been awarded to Ferguson shipyard.

    By November 2017, the first minister herself was launching the first of the vessels, MV Glen Sannox.

    Few there on the day - myself included - knew the ferry was largely unfinished and the engines didn't work.

    No-one, including Nicola Sturgeon, knew that the ferries would still not be ready five years later.

    She has said repeatedly the buck stops with her. She is accountable, she insists.

    But she clearly sees this as a collective, systemic failure, and not one for which she is personally to blame.

  3. How much will this all end up costing?published at 12:18 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Mr Simpson asks the first minister what the total cost of the ferry process has been so far - including nationalisation - and what she envisages the end cost will be.

    The first minister says the latest cost assessment of the current management is being scrutinised by the Scottish government so she can't give that figure.

    She says the current endorsed figure of the vessels' completion is known - but again does not give any clue as to the numbers.

    From previously published figures, it is known the project is at least £150m over budget - but could end up being £200m over.

    Concluding, Ms Strugeon says she makes no apology for the Scottish government's actions in supporting the yard's sustainability.

  4. Why was only Ferguson's allowed to change its bid?published at 12:12 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    glen sannox ferryImage source, PA Media

    Scottish Conservative MSP Graham Simpson asks the first minister why Ferguson's was the only company allowed to revise its bid to build the ferries.

    Ms Sturgeon says CMAL's procurement advice was that this was not abnormal and was part of the "ordinary process of obtaining technical clarification from bidders".

    However, she says it is right that this point is scrutinised, which the auditor general will do.

  5. 'I am accountable and responsible'published at 12:06 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Quote Message

    I am accountable and responsible for everything that happens in the Scottish government's name. Whatever people think about me or the political or other disagreements, I never shy away from that, nor will I ever shy away from that."

    Nicola Sturgeon, First Minister

  6. Who is culpable?published at 12:05 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Richard Leonard

    Committee convener Richard Leonard asks the first minister: "If the workforce aren't culpable - and I agree with you - who do you think is?"

    "Firstly, I and the Scottish government are ultimately accountable, this is a public sector contract." replies Ms Sturgeon.

    "I welcome being here because I do recognise unreservably that ultimate accountability."

    She says she thinks the Scottish government, CMAL, to a lesser extent CalMac and Transport Scotland all have to reflect on all aspects of this and lessons must be learned.

    Quote Message

    This was a contract that a private company signed up to, contracted to do a job that hasn't been done and therefore there is also a significant degree of responsibility, in my view, that has to rest with FMEL and the management of FMEL at the time. They have to be part of this too."

    Nicola Sturgeon, First minister

    She goes on to say she is not sure she has heard FMEL recognise they were contracted to do a job that then wasn't done.

  7. Workers should not shoulder any responsibility - FMpublished at 11:57 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Willie Coffey

    Mr Leonard hands back to the SNP's Willie Coffey, who says the shipyard workforce are fed-up with the issue being used as a political football.

    He asks the first minister to offer reassurance to workers.

    Ms Sturgeon says whoever should take responsibility for the ferry problems, it should not be the workforce.

    "There is no question about the quality of the work," she says, adding the shipbuilders are "skilled and do a fantastic job".

    The first minister also says she believes Ferguson's current chief executive and his team "have a grip of this" and the current management is doing a very good job.

  8. Relationship between CMAL and FMEL was on a 'downward spiral'published at 11:54 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    SNP MSP Colin Beattie turns to the relationship between FMEL and CMAL, the government-owned ferries agency. He says it "seemed to have deteriorated at a very, very early point in the relationship", to the extent that CMAL couldn't get access to the yard.

    CMAL had to continue making staged payments despite having no sight of what was happening in the yard, Mr Beattie says.

    The first minister replies: "We were aware that relationship was becoming progressively more strained and difficult."

    Ms Sturgeon says there was a lot of effort by both sides, particularly by CMAL, to keep the relationship where it needed to be.

    She says, overall, the relationship was on a "downward spiral" and that the government wanted to encourage mediation but it didn't happen.

  9. Workers could lose jobs, why should you keep yours? - Hoypublished at 11:45 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Mr Hoy concludes by saying the shipyard management have made clear that a fresh injection of working capital will be needed to avoid redundancies.

    He says: "The question is this - how can it be that painters, welders and cleaners might lose their jobs as a result of this fiasco and you keep yours?"

    The first minister says a key driver for the Scottish government through the process has been protecting employment.

    While she acknowledges Mr Hoy's scepticism over nationalisation, she says people would have lost jobs otherwise and she makes no apology for the decision.

  10. 'Had we not nationalised, the yard would have closed'published at 11:37 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    nicola sturgeon

    Craig Hoy quizzes the first minister on a number of subjects ranging from her relationship with Jim McColl to the proper process of recording meetings.

    He says the first minister went on to "write one of the biggest blank cheques" in history and asks "was it nationalisation at any cost?"

    Ms Sturgeon says had the government not nationalised, the yard would have closed and the vessels would not have been completed.

    However, she says proper account should be taken of all that happened from May 2017 - including the number of government loans given.

  11. Analysis

    Tackling the political suspicions head onpublished at 11:26 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Lynsey Bews
    BBC Scotland political correspondent

    The first minister opened with an acknowledgment of the impact that the delays are having on island communities. That, she told MSPs, is a matter of "considerable regret".

    Nicola Sturgeon also made clear that, as the head of the Scottish government, she's prepared to answer any and all of the committee's questions.

    Given that ministers have been repeatedly accused of a lack of transparency over this issue, it was a pre-emptive move to demonstrate her willingness to cooperate.

    Despite that, the committee's frustrations over the information they've been given by the government so far were evident from the start.

    After half an hour of questions over the procurement process and her involvement, the FM made one thing clear - her "absolute and categorical" denial that the contract was handed to Ferguson's for political reasons.

    Opposition parties have long expressed suspicions this may have been the case, and today Nicola Sturgeon confronted those accusations head on.

  12. Important not to come to 'summary judgements' - FMpublished at 11:22 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Ms Sturgeon says she "deeply regrets" the impact on island communities.

    She says she would refute many of Craig Hoy's comments, adding that although the contract was not delivered in the way the government wanted, it does not mean the procurement process was as Mr Hoy said "dodgy".

    Allegations about the process are serious and need to be properly investigated, she says, adding the auditor general is looking into those that came to light in the BBC Disclosure programme.

    She says it is important not to come to "summary judgements" and to find out where the failings actually were.

  13. Islanders are paying the price for this 'monumental scandal'published at 11:18 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    craig hoy

    Tory MSP Craig Hoy begins by asking the first minister about transparency, bringing up a "dodgy procurement process" and how a BBC Disclosure programme revealed how Ferguson's had a "cheat sheet" on how to build ferries.

    Quote Message

    Our island communities are paying the price. This is a monumental scandal and it happened on your watch. So what do you say to those islanders today? It surely has to be more than sorry."

    Craig Hoy, Chairman of the Scottish Conservatives

  14. The design responsibility was on the shipbuilder - FMpublished at 11:11 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Nicola Sturgeon

    Mr Coffey adds that the design of the ships seemed to change throughout the building process, meaning the workforce had "significant problems".

    He asks whether, in future, design agreements need to be strengthened before building begins.

    The FM reiterates no-one in the committee is an expert on shipbuilding, but says a standard contract was used which CMAL had used in other procurements.

    The key point, she says, is that the contract puts the obligation for design and construction "firmly on the shipbuilder" - and all of this was accepted by FMEL.

  15. Shipyard workers 'had never built some designs before'published at 11:09 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    ferguson's shipImage source, Getty Images

    SNP MSP Willie Coffey asks whether any lessons will be learned about the technical process of procurements.

    He points out that the shipyard workers were asked to build a clam shell door design, but had never done this before.

    The first minister tells the committee "I am not a shipbuilder", but there was no suggestion that CMAL did not conduct a proper technical process in the procurement.

    She says there are perhaps lessons to be learned about the experience of the new Ferguson's owners compared to the confidence in the shipyard based on its previous contracts.

  16. 'There are lots of red flags up' - Tory MSPpublished at 11:06 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Ms Dowey says there "are so many red flags in advance of the announcement being made and then the contract being issued".

    The Tory MSP says: "There are lots of red flags up here, but it still seems that the contract went through."

    The first minister says the preferred bidder announcement was made on 31 August while there was ongoing negotiations.

    These included concerns about the "complexities of level of guarantee that FMEL can provide", she says.

    That was not presented in a "red flag way", adds Ms Sturgeon.

    She says CMAL outlined its concerns but also detailed the mitigations.

    Ms Sturgeon says: "I am absolutely determined that the government learns all lessons that are appropriate here."

  17. FM 'completely and utterly' refutes accusation of jobs for the boyspublished at 11:04 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Jim McColl
    Image caption,

    Businessman Jim McColl

    Ms Dowey asks if this was a case of "jobs for the boys", with the government having an interest in awarding the contract to FMEL and the relationship between Jim McColl and the government being well known.

    The first minister "completely and utterly" refutes this.

    Ms Sturgeon says there was "absolutely, categorically" nothing untoward in the procurement process.

    The contract was awarded purely on the assessment CMAL did, she adds.

  18. Was the FM aware of CMAL objections?published at 10:56 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Sharon Dowey

    Ms Dowey says CMAL had strong objections to the high-profile announcement of the preferred bidder.

    The first minister replies she had no knowledge about that at the time, and there was nothing in her briefing to indicate they had objections.

    She insists her announcement of the preferred bidder was not abnormal for a first minister.

    "Were you aware the CMAL board wanted to stop the procurement process?" asks Ms Dowey.

    "Not at that point, no." replies the first minister.

  19. 'No red flag' about level of guarantees in ferry bidpublished at 10:49 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    The timing of the announcement of the preferred bidder was to do with the tender timescale, explains the first minister.

    Ms Sturgeon says the briefing she got for that event said there were still significant negotiations to be completed before the final awarding of the contract.

    The briefing included complexities around the level of guarantee, she says.

    Ms Dowey asks when the first minister first became aware of issues around the Builders Refund Guarantee.

    The FM replies it would have been in the briefing, but it "was not a big red flag that this was going to be a problem".

  20. Why did the first minister announce Ferguson's as preferred bidder?published at 10:41 Greenwich Mean Time 4 November 2022

    Ferguson's shipyardImage source, Getty Images

    Conservative MSP Sharon Dowey returns to the announcement of the preferred bidder and asks why the first minister personally announced Ferguson Marine Engineering Limited (FMEL) as the preferred bidder for the contract.

    Nicola Sturgeon insists it is not abnormal to announce a preferred bidder and explains there is often a decision to name the preferred bidder to avoid leaks.

    The first minister says she announced in 31 August 2015 that FMEL was the preferred bidder for the Clyde and Hebrides ferry services contract.

    She says that suggests it is not completely unknown for preferred bidders to be announced or indeed for her to do so.

    Ms Sturgeon tells the committee that consideration was given as to whether it should be a minister or first minister who announces the preferred bidder.

    "Ultimately, I don't end up at places making announcements unless I have agreed to do it."