Summary

  • Jeane Freeman, former Scottish health secretary, has given evidence to the UK Covid inquiry in Edinburgh

  • She said she would regret "for the rest of my life" any deaths which occurred because her government did not take action or could have done better

  • Freeman said she felt there "wasn't sufficient urgency from the UK government” at a Cobra meeting in March 2020

  • She said she did not delete any of her WhatsApp messages during the pandemic - primarily because "it never occurred to me to do so"

  • Earlier, Michael Gove said there was "irritation" within No 10 when then First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced a ban on mass gatherings in Scotland shortly after a Cobra meeting in March 2020

  • The UK levelling up secretary said Sturgeon's move was "unwise" and led to concerns about the Scottish government being trusted - although he felt it was better to "err on the side of forgiveness"

  1. Gove: No aim to 'provoke or deceive' by changing messagepublished at 12:45 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Conversation now turns to how the UK government's "stay at home" message changed in May 2020 to a message that encouraged people to simply stay alert.

    Jamie Dawson KC says the Scottish government felt it had been misled by the prime minister about the shift.

    "They lost faith in the UK government's approach," he adds.

    Gove accepts the first minister and her team felt irritated but "I don't believe there was any intention to provoke and deceive" he expects "it was more to do about the pace of decision-making".

  2. Scotland's outcomes 'not radically different' to rest of UK, minister sayspublished at 12:39 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Gove broadens his remarks about pandemic decision-making by reflecting on how the virus impacted on Scotland compared to the rest of the UK.

    By the end of the pandemic, "the tragic number of deaths" was not radically different in Scotland to the rest of the UK, he says - despite what he characterises as the divergent approaches of the two governments.

  3. Sturgeon felt Scotland's response was superior - Govepublished at 12:37 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Scottish ministers thought there'd be calls for Westminster to "give Scotland more powers" if their response to the pandemic was seen to be more efficient and compassionate, Gove opines.

    The day-to-day decisions of the Scottish government were driven by the desire to do the right thing, he says.

    Then-First Minister Nicola Sturgeon believed Scotland had a superior response to that seen in England, Gove tells the inquiry.

    He says: "At certain points the Scottish government were tempted to go down a course where they would engineer a potential row - a rammy - in order to reinforce that political point."

  4. Gove recalls No 10's fear of 'divergence for its own sake'published at 12:30 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson asks if there was a perception within the UK government that the Scottish government was seeking to establish its own response so as to purposefully diverge from the message of the UK government.

    Gove says he does not recall anyone thinking that, but there was a concern at various points that "divergence might be sought for its own sake".

    He also recognises, however, that Scottish ministers may have felt the need to seek additional advice.

    He says: "Had I been a minister in the Scottish government... I think I would have wanted a second or a third opinion before I took particular steps."

  5. Westminster became cautious in dealings with Sturgeon, Gove sayspublished at 12:25 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Kirsten Campbell
    BBC Scotland political correspondent

    Michael Gove speaks at the UK Covid inquiryImage source, UK Covid inquiry

    Gove has spoken of the disquiet and discomfort felt at Westminster after Nicola Sturgeon was seen to have "jumped the gun" by announcing a ban on mass gatherings over more than 500 people in Scotland in March 2020.

    Sturgeon's announcement followed a Cobra meeting at which it was agreed that the chief medical officers of the UK's four nations would provide further advice on the policy.

    Some in Westminster viewed Sturgeon's actions as a breach of confidentiality, because information from the meeting had been put into the public domain by the then-first minister. Gove suggested that this led ministers to "ca'canny" (go cautiously) in their dealings with the Scottish government thereafter.

    It's worth bearing in mind that often Scottish government announcements happened ahead of Westminster, simply because the daily briefing in Scotland was held at lunchtime, while the daily briefing at Westminster was held at tea-time.

  6. Gove denies claims UK government failed to share informationpublished at 12:20 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Gove refutes allegations of the Scottish government that key scientific and public advice pertaining to the whole UK - from scientists' group Sage for example - was not shared with Scottish officials.

    He says he doesn’t recall concerns being raised about information-sharing.

  7. 'The bigger the cast list, the bigger the risk"published at 12:18 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Jamie Dawson KC raises the issue of travel policy, and how the so-called Covid red list was leaked from Cobra meetings and UK government-only meetings.

    Gove suggests that the number of meeting participants presented a hazard, quipping: "The bigger the cast list, the greater the risk."

    He says he did not feel that the presence of Scottish officials presented a specific risk of a leak, but the experience of 12 March 2020 meant that some in the UK government that did have that concern.

    "The prime minister and secretary of state for Scotland were concerned," Gove recalls, though says he doesn't want to overstate the fears of either Boris Johnson or Alister Jack.

  8. Cummings' fears were 'reinforced' by Sturgeon's actions - Govepublished at 12:13 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Inquiry lawyer Jamie Dawson KC picks up on the "air of suspicion" and the "breach of confidentiality". He asks if this was connected to advice given by Dominic Cummings tor Boris Johnson to exclude devolved administrations from certain meetings.

    Gove says in a way, Cummings' "fears" expressed in the message sent on the morning of 12 March 2020 (which we mentioned earlier) were reinforced by Nicola Sturgeon's actions later that day.

  9. Inquiry chair highlights breach of confidentialitypublished at 12:08 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Baroness Heather Hallett speaks at the UK Covid inquiryImage source, UK Covid inquiry

    Baroness Hallett jumps in at this point to suggest that Sturgeon breached confidentiality when she announced her decision about mass gatherings.

    “A number of people within government were disappointed,” Gove remarks. He says this led some to believe there needed to be “care and caution in how we worked with the first minister.”

  10. No 10 was 'irritated' by Sturgeon's briefingspublished at 12:06 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Michael Gove says Nicola Sturgeon's briefing on mass gatherings was "unwise of the first minister" and "an error on her part".

    However, he says she may have wanted to get the message out about a ban on mass gatherings as quickly as possible, and he was inclined to say at the time: "We shouldn't allow regret over this to prejudice continued good working overall."

    Gove says others in the UK government were irritated, though. He says "I'm pretty sure there was irritation in Number 10" - who he clarifies to mean Boris Johnson - and that Scottish Secretary Alister Jack felt the same.

  11. Sturgeon announcement caused trust issues, Gove recallspublished at 12:04 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Michael Gove speaks to the UK Covid inquiryImage source, UK Covid inquiry

    Gove continues to reflect on the Cobra meeting in March 2020 - saying the minutes indicate that attendees agreed not to make any announcements about mass gatherings until further discussions had taken place.

    He says: "It certainly wasn't the case that the first minister indicated that immediately after the meeting she would announce such a policy (to ban mass gatherings)."

    Gove said this led to "discomfiture" and concerns about the Scottish government being trusted with the four nations' decisions about pandemic management.

  12. Gove: Scotland's 'jumping of the gun' upset some in UK governmentpublished at 12:00 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    The inquiry continues to discuss the divergences between Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon over bans on mass gatherings during the pandemic.

    Gove says some of his colleagues were "unhappy about the jumping of the gun" after Sturgeon announced the ban in Scotland before the UK government had made its own decision.

  13. Gove acknowledges 'divergent' views on mass gatheringspublished at 11:55 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Jamie Dawson KC turns to the minutes of a Cabinet Office Briefing Room (Cobra) meeting in March 2020 about the possible cancellation of mass gatherings.

    He says the Scottish government indicated it was broadly in favour of this measure, while the UK government said scientific advice did not back the move.

    The inquiry lawyer points out that then-First Minister Nicola Sturgeon announced that mass gatherings would be banned in Scotland, shortly after the meeting concluded.

    "It was certainly divergent," Gove comments.

  14. Proceedings resumepublished at 11:44 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Baroness Heather HallettImage source, UK Covid inquiry
    Image caption,

    Inquiry chair Baroness Heather Hallett

    Michael Gove is back in his seat and today's inquiry hearing is getting under way again. You can stream it live by pressing the 'play' button at the top of this page.

    A reminder that you may hear strong language on the livestream from time to time. The proceedings are live and we're not in control of what's said.

  15. 'Not enough face-to-face meetings,' Gove admitspublished at 11:39 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Just before the break, Gove said that Sturgeon and her counterpart in Wales, Mark Drakeford, wanted more face-to-face meetings with UK ministers, conceding they were not as frequent as they wanted.

    Stay tuned and we'll bring you more commentary when the hearing resumes.

  16. Did UK government engage with Scottish government?published at 11:37 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Michael Gove gives evidence to the UK Covid inquiryImage source, UK Covid inquiry

    Jamie Dawson KC also asked Gove if the comments from Dominic Cummings backed up the Scottish government's position that the UK government went ahead with decisions without engaging in discussion.

    The UK government minister denied this, saying "Dominic was one voice" - further arguing that the Scottish government had its own deliberations to which the UK government was not privy.

  17. Gove: Decision-makers need a safe space to float ideaspublished at 11:35 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Before this morning's interval, the inquiry also saw messages from Dominic Cummings in which he advised his boss Boris Johnson to chair meetings in the Cabinet Room - not Cobra, so as to avoid the presence of devolved administrations on the call.

    Dawson asked why the prime minister was receiving advice to avoid the devolved administrations being present at this vital point of the pandemic.

    Gove said there needed to be "a space" where the prime minister could consider data and points put to him and "test the strength" of those before coming to a conclusion. He said it was important that the PM had privacy to "float different ideas without fear of those ideas being taken out of context".

    Gove said he believed Cummings' reference to avoiding the presence of the devolved administrations was not to dodge Nicola Sturgeon, but instead Michelle O'Neill, Sinn Fein's deputy first minister of Northern Ireland.

  18. An 'understatement' to say Johnson and Sturgeon 'not soulmates'published at 11:31 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Gove was also asked about his written statement in which he said that Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon were "not soulmates" but were able to co-ordinate their work and policies.

    "Is the description that they were not soulmates something of an understatement?" asked Jamie Dawson KC.

    "Understatement is sometimes the most effective means of communication" replied Gove.

    "Is it fair to say that they did not get on at all?" asked Dawson.

    "No," said Gove. "They are very different... but they are both skilled politicians fired by passion" who knew it was important to respect each other's position.

  19. Gove: Sturgeon added 'a political complexion' to her pointspublished at 11:30 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    Just before the break, Michael Gove explained that Matt Hancock had "very straightforward" dealings with both Jeanne Freeman and Humza Yousaf, who served as successive Scottish health secretaries.

    Gove added that he thought John Swinney was "also very professional".

    As for Nicola Sturgeon - Gove said the first minister was someone who was "undoubtedly a focused and disciplined minister. but it would sometimes be the case there would be a political complexion to some of the points she chose to make".

  20. Inquiry takes a short breakpublished at 11:26 Greenwich Mean Time 29 January

    The hearing has paused for 15 minutes or so - and we'll continue to catch you up on some of what was said before the interval.