SNP MSP Emma Harper asks what has been the alternative practice since the ban 10 years ago.

Ms Harper asks if the tail has been wrapped or Vaseline used.

Alan Marshall says British Association for Shooting and Conservation will try to offer protection by wrapping the trail.

Mr Marshall says there is still doing to be some discomfort from a cut even if the tail is wrapped.

Runa Hanaghan from the Dogs Trust says tail docking involves cutting and tearing through tissue and possibly bone.

Jim Dukes from Dukes Vet Practice says there is no evidence that docking causes chronic pain and that any view that it does is emotive rather than based on science.

Alan Marshall from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation says dogs often respond more to micro chipping before settling down "pretty quickly".

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Runa Hanaghan from the Dogs Trust says the understanding of pain in animals is increasing.

Ms Hanaghan says cats in pain remain quiet for example.

She says the pain tools for dogs are for chronic pain and around surgery with pain relief and she says she is unaware of any studies of pain in puppies.

Committee convener Graeme Dey says everyone around the table is coming at this from an animal welfare perspective.

Mr Dey asks how much practitioners are likely to charge for puppy docking.

Jim Dukes from Dukes Vet Practice says he does not know what vets will charge.

Mr Dukes says maybe £10 per pup for a litter of six..

Runa Hanaghan from the Dogs Trust says the costs when amputating a tail in life is greater because of the procedure and aesthetic.

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Alan Marshall from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation says spaniels have a very, very fast tail wag with fine hair on the tail which gets removed by bramble or gorse.

This leads to bare areas that are easily traumatised he says.

SNP MSP Richard Lyle asks Mr Duke why the law is needed when tail injuries are not happening very often.

Mr Marshall says most people won't work a dog with a full tail as they bring pups in from south of the border.

He says the gun dog population knows what the problem is and will source dogs with docked tails from elsewhere.

Jim Dukes says he spoke to a number of veterinary practices and says half wanted docking back.

Mr Dukes says those who had concerns wanted to see clear definitions and he says the legislation must be targeted as clearly as possible.

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Committee convener Graeme Dey asks for a ballpark figure on how many vets would opt-out of docking.

Melissa Donald from the British Veterinary Association says she has no evidence but believes the vast majority would not do it.

Alan Marshall from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation says many breeders have stopped breeding in Scotland.

Mr Marshall says many owners have taken the pregnant bitch south of the border to get the puppy's legally docked before travelling back.

SNP MSP Richard Lyle says the vet carrying out docking must be satisfied that the dog is going to be used as a working dog.

Mr Lyle asks how this will work.

Jim Dukes from Dukes Vet Practice says it would be difficult but "local knowledge of owners and dogs is important."

He says it would be an individual case by case basis.

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Runa Hanaghan from the Dogs Trust says reading dogs' behaviour is hard and if the tail is docked people cannot see warning signs.

Ms Hanaghan says there is a risk in dog to dog interaction and human's understanding of it.

She says taking away the dog's tail takes away that element of expression.

Alan Marshall from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation says the breeds that are being talked about are very expressive.

Mr Marshall says they are unlikely to be involved in dog on dog aggression.

He says "working breeds are fairly easy to read" and that if they have a half docked tail then the other dogs will read them quite well.

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Alan Marshall from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation says the Glasgow survey looked at injuries over one year.

Mr Marshall says his concern is that this is only one year of a dog's life.

He says the dog may not sustain an injury in that year and that he is looking for eight or nine years work from a dog.

Dr Tim Parkin from University of Glasgow says a response rate cannot be defined from this survey.

Melissa Donald from the British Veterinary Association says there were only 1,005 respondents in the survey.

Ms Donald says there is therefore an over estimation of injury to the dogs.

She says a lot of the evidence was anecdotal and the owners were not required to give evidence.

Runa Hanaghan from the Dogs Trust says the Lederer review looking at the survey only had a 5% response rate from those polled.

Ms Hanaghan says this gives a bias.

She says the Cameron study poses concerns too as some practices did not participate and the study shows there is a large number of puppies that must be docked for any benefit.

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Tory MSP Finlay Carson says the responses in the research from Glasgow University are diverse.

Mr Carson asks if this research provides a robust basis for a change in the law.

Jim Dukes from Dukes Vet Practice says at least the Glasgow University study is a piece of research.

Mr Dukes says he has been surveying gamekeepers recently and all of them, he has spoke to, say that tail docking should be reintroduced.

"They love their dogs and have no desire to harm their dogs," he says.

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Tory MSP Peter Chapman says he is a farmer and he has tail docked thousands of pigs and he has never known a pig to die as a result.

Mr Chapman says there was just a squeak and in ten minutes the pigs are back to normal.

He says he does not know why people are so hung up on tail docking puppies and he asks what the witnesses feel about tail docking pigs.

Melissa Donald from the British Veterinary Association says there is evidence to show that because of tail biting in pigs the benefit is clear.

Ms Donald says pigs do not last for twelve years and don't wag their tails and she says it is worth doing the pigs as it prevents tail biting.

Jim Dukes from Dukes Vet Practice says there are plenty of vets who think it is absolutely the right thing to do.

Mr Dukes says he thinks that training would be relatively easy to set up.

Committee convener Graeme Dey asks those who are against it if there are skills in the profession to do it.

Melissa Donald from the British Veterinary Association says she is not sure it would be that simple and that vets would not wish to train others in docking.

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Runa Hanaghan from the Dogs Trust says she is a veterinary surgeon and says she has concerns around the pain of docking.

She says she has seen litters of puppies die due to poorly docked tails and there is no pain management for the puppies.

Ms Hanaghan says there is research into the long term impact of tail docking of puppies.

Labour MSP Claudia Beamish asks in what circumstances a dog's tail could become seriously infected and asks if it is a management issue.

Jim Dukes from Dukes Vet Practice says it is not always easy to identify cuts that will become affected.

Mr Dukes says tails wag and, if they do become cut, they are difficult to treat.

Committee convener Graeme Dey asks if there is a suggestion that illegal docking is happening already.

Alan Marshall from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation says that he has seen no evidence of "chronic pain" from incorrect tail docking.

Mr Marshall says that there has been evidence of irresponsible owners in the past, but he does not think any vet, no matter how pro docking, would have carried out an illegal procedure.

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From BASC website, external:

"The BASC Scotland team has extensive knowledge and experience in all areas of shooting and conservation.

"We run a programme of training courses and activity days and provide advice and guidance in all relevant areas."

In its submission to the committee the BASC says: "As an organisation we have lobbied to seek the reintroduction of tail shortening in Scotland for the past ten years, including organising the first public petition on this subject.

"We have advised Scottish Government on the research that it has funded, following on from our petition, and worked with others, including veterinary surgeons, who have lobbied for repeal."

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Alan Marshall from the British Association for Shooting and Conservation says he has been a vet in general practice for 35 years.

Mr Marshall says docking is to prevent an injury.

He says these injuries, primarily to spaniels, are debilitating.

Mr Marshall says there is a much bigger number of injuries to spaniels than heard earlier.