Image source, bbc

Sue Palmer from Upstart Scotland says countries like Finland and Germany do not set a standard of literacy in P1, rather they provide support.

Ms Palmer insists Scandinavian countries focus on self-directed outdoor play, and Upstart Scotland was originally set up to reintroduce this in Scotland.

It is actually the existence of the tests that impacts on the class, says Ms Palmer. and she reiterates that she supports developmental testing.

SNP MSP Rona Mackay asks if guidelines were put in place to prevent the test results being used inappropriately.

Ms Palmer says she does not think guidelines would work.

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Sue Palmer from Upstart Scotland points out there is a developmental test in P1 in schools in Ontario, which gives a great deal of information.

Ms Palmer says the Netherlands and Germany also have developmental tests in P1, but they do not do the three Rs at that level.

She says the benchmarks are used in the P1 testing in Scotland.

I'm against specific skill based assessments on numeracy and literacy, not holistic tests, says Ms Palmer.

Ms Brock warns that if FOIs are used to check on individual schools then there will be a huge problem in how we consider Scotland's education.

They will shape behaviours and CIS are not satisfied with assurances by the Scottish government, she adds.

Ms Brock concludes there is a danger that information from SNSAs will be distorted.

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An independent review is to be carried out into whether standardised assessments should continue to given to Scotland's P1 pupils.

Education Secretary John Swinney continues to defend the tests, but said the "independent, evidence-led review" would determine their future.

Opposition parties accused Mr Swinney of "defying" the will of parliament.

MSPs voted for ministers to "halt" the tests earlier this year after criticism from some parents and teachers.

Read more.

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SNP MSP Jenny Gilruth begins by asking:

• Sue Palmer from Upstart Scotland, external
• Jackie Brock from Children in Scotland, external

.....about the previous SSLN.

The SSLN was the Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy.

The Scottish government (SG) took the decision to discontinue the Scottish Survey of Literacy and Numeracy (SSLN).

The last SSLN took place in May 2016 and results were published on 9th May 2017.

Image source, bbc

Ms Brock says the evidence of the SSLN has been dismissed.

The wealth of assessment data we have in Scotland is lacking, says the Children in Scotland chief executive.

Sue Palmer from Upstart Scotland says she too thinks it was a mistake to lose the SSLN.

"I'm very much opposed to standardised testing of children at the age of five."

Ms Palmer says this is in terms of literacy and numeracy.

Image source, THINKSTOCK

The Education Committee will continue its Scottish National Standardised Assessments inquiry now, taking evidence from:

• Sue Palmer from Upstart Scotland, external
• Jackie Brock from Children in Scotland, external

Read the committee papers here., external

Conservative MSP Oliver Mundell wonders whether pupils rankings (from tests) leads to bias on the part of teachers.

Prof Hargreaves replies that streaming may not exist like it used to, but says teachers already put children into groups.

He says selection takes place anyway.

Mr Mundell asks if testing occurs too early?

The professor says early assessments take place continuously by teachers, and are vital to help children progress.

Image source, bbc

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Mr Gray says teachers are saying these tests do not provide useful information.

The academic replies this should be a warning for the Scottish government, and teachers must say what skills and competences should be.

It's not a reason to do away with the tests, but it is a reason to say what tests will be most valid, he says.

Mr Gray tells Prof Hargreaves the designers of the tests said there was not teacher involvement in the tests, and he asks was this a mistake.

Prof Hargreaves answers: "Teachers need to be continuously involved."

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One of Scotland's largest councils has said it will scrap the controversial P1 assessments.

Fife Council said it would discontinue the scheme after the end of this school year, and it plans to bring back the previous system of assessment.

Education Secretary John Swinney said the move by the council made "little sense".

Some others, including Aberdeen, have previously said they are looking at the possibility of doing this.

Read more.

Prof Hargreaves says the primacy all the time must be teachers' judgement.

He adds there must be knowledge to support the child, but also knowledge and so support the system.

The academic warns against denying the nature of one over the other.

Labour MSP Iain Gray asks if the P1 test can provide the teacher with the capacity to improve learning strategies for their children, and provide system wide information.

Prof Hargreaves says this should be part of the data and should not prevail over all the other data available.

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Prof Hargreaves says all leaders must understand there must be a culture of learning and not fear and anxiety.

Ms Lamont asks how bias can be taken out of tests.

The academic says he took the P1 test yesterday and apparently he did quite well, but concedes he did not find them easy.

Jamie McIvor
BBC Scotland education correspondent

Image source, Getty Images

It is not clear exactly how a council would be able to refuse to carry out standardised assessments in Primary 1 within the law.

Scottish councils are fiercely protective of their role in the education service. But that service is also, essentially, a national service as well as a local one.

It is hard to think of a time when any Scottish councils have explicitly refused to carry out the wishes of the government on a major issue.

It is safe to say the Scottish government's lawyers will be considering what action may be open to them if Aberdeen and East Lothian follow up on their threats.

But, away from legal action, it is not hard to see one very powerful tool which the Scottish government could put to use.

Read more here.

Professor Andy Hargreaves from Boston College and University of Ottawa explains there must be a buffer between the teachers and the large scale standardised assesments.

Labour MSP Johann Lamont asks if there is an issue around the consistency of actually doing the tests.

Ms Lamont points out that in Scotland, P1 assessments can be done at any time of the year.

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Prof Hargreaves replies all systems contain risks and are imperfect.

He remembers his first test at seven years old in P1, and remembers that he felt the test was very important.

The professor found out later that it dictated which educational stream he went into, and indeed which secondary school he and his peers went to, despite these systems being flawed.

However teacher judgement has issues too, he says, as there is no Nirvana.

Image source, Thinkstock

Scotland's largest teaching union is calling for national assessments for P1 pupils to be scrapped.

The assessments were introduced in 2017 to gauge children's numeracy and literacy skills, but have been opposed by some teachers and politicians.

The EIS believes the tests are inappropriate and has warned of a boycott if matters do not improve.

The Scottish government says the tests are appropriate for five-year-olds and should be enjoyable for children.

BBC Scotland education correspondent Jamie McIvor answers some common questions on the assessments.

Prof Hargreaves says where there is great inequality and increasing diversity, some kind of census can be more beneficial than just samples.

The academic points out many teachers everywhere use standardised assessments, but they are just not large scale.

He says the issue is large scale standardised assessments and whether they bring about authentic benefits.

For example, he says, improvements in the US have been statistically criticised.

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Ms Smith says we must not just raise attainment, but also use the testing in schools to identify the need for greater support.

Prof Hargreaves agrees this is a dilemma, and goes on to say five years ago, systems were in denial that large scale standardised assessments had negative consequences.

The solution being tried in Scotland is to ask how do we use large scale assessments to inform teachers, with local authorities not being able to compare each other using test results, he says.

"You are on the front edge here for the World."

Standardised assessments for P1 pupils are at the centre of a political row in Scotland, with opposition parties pressing a vote on whether they should be axed. But what are they actually like?

• The nation-wide tests were introduced last year, with ministers saying they provide important data about pupil performance and help teachers identify areas where pupils might need help early in their education.

• Opposition parties have voiced a range of concerns about the assessments, citing campaigns by parents' and teaching groups, and it is expected they will pass a motion calling for them to be scrapped on Wednesday.

• The government put on demonstrations of the tests for MSPs and media ahead of the parliamentary debate.

Read more here.

Tory MSP Liz Smith says the OECD gave Scotland a set of six criteria if it wants to improve attainment.

Ms Smith asks for examples where schools have improved outcomes for their pupils and where Scotland could learn some lessons.

Prof Hargreaves says it is important to learn and not to copy, so to look at a number of models to find what is best for your country.

The academic says he is a big fan of Finland and praises its educational attainment, as it performs well on this, and on equality.

He adds that the assessment process is based on samples rather than on a census, which is used as a way of preventing people teaching to the test, or gaming the system.

Most assessment is directed to improving learning, Prof Hargreaves explains, but adds the difficulty in transposing this model is that Finland is not very diverse as a country.

Image source, PA

An independent review is to be carried out into whether standardised assessments should continue to given to Scotland's P1 pupils.

Education Secretary John Swinney continues to defend the tests, but said the "independent, evidence-led review" would determine their future.

Opposition parties accused Mr Swinney of "defying" the will of parliament.

MSPs voted for ministers to "halt" the tests earlier this year after criticism from some parents and teachers.

Read more.

Professor Andy Hargreaves from Boston College and University of Ottawa explains to the committee that he began adult life as a teacher, but then became a researcher and academic.

Prof Hargreaves says he has done research in a number of countries about education reform and change.