Harry Josephine Giles tells the committee that it is "really worrying" that EU funding for the arts might be taken away due to Brexit.

They note EU funding often ends up being directed towards rural areas, which do not get as much funding from the Scottish government as urban areas do.

Issues relating to touring in rural areas are also highlighted, with Harry Josephine Giles suggesting this is often due to things like venue size.

They say there is demand in rural areas for arts tours to include them but there is a lack of funding to make it happen.

SNP MSP Stuart McMillan asks about having a basic citizens' income.

Ken Mathieson believes if there is a basic citizens' income it probably would not cost more than it costs to run the current benefits system.

He points out that most people in the arts are "driven people", but it becomes impossible if you don't have that basic wage to rely on, which gives you that "breathing space" to work.

Local authority funding for local education is key for funding culture and if you squeeze local authorities, one of the first things that goes is cultural programmes, he concludes.

Harry Josephine Giles praises free music tuition available in Orkney and Shetland, noting music is a core part of these islands' identities.

It's not just a Creative Scotland problem, there must be a "broad political mission" to fix it through an overall government strategy on how arts links up with things like education, they argue.

Rhona Matheson highlights that Starcatchers Theatre Company not only puts on productions, but also does outreach work to vulnerable communities and supports skills in the arts sector.

However, David Leddy warns against making artists teach to make a living alongside creating art because not all of them will be good at it or will want to.

Labour MSP Claire Baker asks whether the solution to arts funding is about putting more money into the system or about "cutting the pie differently" in terms of allocation.

Harry Josephine Giles replies the best way is to raise corporation tax and the top rates of income tax to get more money into the system.

David Leddy says a lot more money needs to be committed to the arts and culture, and that changes need to be made to how Creative Scotland makes funding decisions.

He notes there are different types of excellence and there needs to be a truly diverse understanding of what excellence means for different cultures, like working-class culture having a different perception of excellence to middle-class tastes.

He also believes more peer reviews would help in the decision making process.

Green MSP Ross Greer asks about designing a system that does not allow for disadvantage, noting those that "shout the loudest" for resource often have more resource to begin with.

Raymond Vilakazi says a future model of support must reflect the demographics of Scotland which would see more given to minority communities.

Any overhaul of arts funding must include the arts community, Ken Mathieson says.

Rhona Matheson says that there is a hierarchy in terms of the relationship artists have with Creative Scotland based on whether they receive regular or project funding, despite the arts body insisting there is not.

Harry Josephine Giles calls for more equal wages across the sector, arguing chief executives are paid too much.

David Leddy says elsewhere in Europe artists reach a point in their career where they have proved they have promise and the arts body provides funding to them.

That is really good value for money, he insists.

Harry Josephine Giles says the only way they have been able to make a living wage has been to approach not only Creative Scotland, but also the British Arts Council and the EU.

In previous years I have received more from the EU than I have from Creative Scotland, they say.

Image source, MIHAELA BODLOVIC

Creative Scotland's funding system falls "well below" the standard expected of a public body, the culture committee concluded last year.

The arts organisation has been heavily criticised over funding decisions, which saw board members resign in protest earlier this year.

MSPs said the organisation needed to urgently address strategic failings.

Creative Scotland praised its staff and said it was conducting a review of the funding process.

Read more here.

SNP MSP Emma Harper asks about innovative funding in other countries and what Scotland could learn from their European neighbours.

Rhona Matheson explains that in some Erasmus countries, external artists are funded to make work, experiment and take risks.

She also gives examples of artists in the Netherlands and France who are supported by the state.

Prof Richard Demarco says of the 3,500 productions and exhibitions he has put on in his lifetime, most of the funding came from outside Scotland.

He explains this was because Scotland was not geared up to provide the support.

He criticises the shift away from annual support and towards project funding.

The language of art lasts beyond any one lifetime, Prof Demarco insists.

Raymond Vilakazi from Neo Productions says he was once told work from the BME communities was "generally viewed as sub-standard".

He says this was because this work was assessed to the same standard as organisations like the Lyceum Theatre.

"You can't compete" in terms of quality because of a lack of funds, he states.

David Leddy explains that under the old Scottish Arts Council, there was an initial selection process to assess the quality of the artistic project when it came to funding applications.

Mr Leddy claims that under Creative Scotland, that quality assessment was "got rid of", with decisions made solely about business priorities, rather than the art itself.

Mr Leddy is asked what the reasons were for removing this aspect of the process.

Lots of people thought if you got rid of assessing quality, it would allow artists to flourish and it would save money, explains the theatre company artistic director. "I don't think that's what has happened," he adds.

David Leddy tells the committee about a discussion he had with a European artist who suggested British arts funding "doesn't believe in funding art", but rather projects have to achieve a "social aim".

Convener Joan McAlpine asks about support behind peer-reviewed funding.

Ken Mathieson says he would rather have an application reviewed by someone who knew what they were talking about.

Rhona Matheson accepts peer reviews are "not perfect" but it allows the voice of sectors to be heard in the decision-making process.

David Leddy agrees there are ways around any challenges, such as creating diverse panels, a point also echoed by Harry Josephine Giles.

Harry Josephine Giles believes a public body like Creative Scotland shouldn't be the only way artists are supported.

They point out that local authority funding and the benefits system used to play crucial roles in allowing people to do unpaid arts projects while "on the dole".

Having some sort of social security while you began your arts career was vital, they argue.

Harry Josephine Giles suggests it depends what we want arts funding to do and believes the answer should be to further equality, justice and participation in the arts.

Diverse art from diverse backgrounds is what is being obstructed and you need to lower the barrier to entry, they add.

Ken Mathieson highlights that jazz audiences are declining in Scotland which leads to lower rates of pay.

He says often £20-25 per man is offered which nobody can live on.

Promoters often get left out of the dialogue in arts funding despite them being the people who get art out to the public, Mr Mathieson says.

Artists must be given a "sensible working wage" which reflects their talent, he adds.

He also calls for the support for the sector to be expanded across Scotland, highlighting it it far easier to get gigs in the central belt than anywhere else.

He questions how much knowledge people who making funding decisions have of the specific sectors.

Raymond Vilakazi, artistic director of Neo Productions, says the funding application process at Creative Scotland "is not a level playing field".

Mr Vilakazi says he asked the organisation two years ago to provide him with figures to show how much creative funding is getting through to black and minority ethnic groups.

I am still waiting for answers, he adds.

"I know why they can't tell us - because it is basically nothing".

Image source, Creative Scotland

Creative Scotland’s overall budget for 2018-19 is £90m, from which it receives 70% from the Scottish Government and 30% from the National Lottery.

Creative Scotland distributes its funding through three funding routes: regular funding; open project funding; and targeted funding.

Regular funding is available to organisations for up to three years, open project funding is for programmes run by individuals or organisations, while targeted funding is to support specific sectors (including film & TV production).

It is currently undertaking a review of its funding, external, set to conclude in winter 2019.

Rhona Matheson of Starcatchers Theatre Company says Creative Scotland used to have separate funds for different art forms.

The way open project money has evolved has become problematic because it means quite different organisations are being judged against one another, she explains.

Ms Matheson says funders are having to find arbitrary reasons to say why money is not given due to there only being a finite pot of money.

The way the funding system works claims to give a series of priorities we have to meet, says David Leddy, artistic director of Fire Exit theatre company.

We filled that criteria but we did not get funding anyway, he adds.

Mr Leddy says that his company was not given an explanation as to why funding was not provided.

Ken Mathieson, a jazz musician, says he has been told that there is no budgeting at Creative Scotland and pots of money are not split into sub-genres.

That is "just madness", he adds.

Prof Richard Demarco says we are living in a "time of crisis" where everything is unstable and has to be short-term.

The Edinburgh Festival brought an international stage to Scotland after the Second World War, he says, but suggests it has now become a "money-making scheme".

I don't think it benefits every corner of Scotland, Prof Demarco explains.

Raymond Vilakazi, artistic director of Neo Productions, says funding applications are also an issue for black and minority ethnic people, some of whom don't have the language skills to express themselves on the applications.

Having paid employees to help with applications would be very useful for black and ethnic organisations, adds Mr Vilakazi.