Summary

  • Health Secretary Jeane Freeman apologises to the parents of two patients who died in the Royal Hospital for Children

  • Ms Freeman expresses her "deepest sympathies" to the families of Milly Main, 10, and three-year-old Mason Djemat

  • She says the head of NHS Scotland will review whether any escalation of measures for NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde is required

  1. Ministerial statement: The 30th Anniversary of the UNCRCpublished at 13:27 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    UnicefImage source, Unicef
    Image caption,

    Unicef

    The government will now give a ministerial statement on the 30th Anniversary of the UNCRC .

    Since 1990, children around the world have been promised rights which countries in the United Nations agreed to protect.

    The United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, or UNCRC, is the basis of all of Unicef’s work. It is the most complete statement of children’s rights ever produced and is the most widely-ratified international human rights treaty in history.

  2. Postpublished at 13:22 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

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  3. Coming up in the chamber......published at 12:41 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    1.30-2.00 pm: Ministerial statement on the 30th Anniversary of the UNCRC

    2.00-2.30 pm: Ministerial statement Queen Elizabeth University Hospital ward closure

    The £842m Queen Elizabeth University Hospital complex opened in 2015.Image source, bbc
    Image caption,

    The £842m Queen Elizabeth University Hospital complex opened in 2015.

    2:30 pm:Portfolio Questions: Culture, Tourism and External Affairs Education and Skills

    3.10-4.20 pm: Labour Party Debate: Universal Credit

    4.20-5.30 pm: Labour Party Debate: Investing in Scotland

    5.30 pm:Members’ Business: Iain Gray – Celebrating the International Year of the Periodic Table(4min open debate speeches)

  4. Cladding safety test should be 'reviewed and reformed'published at 12:38 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Convener James Dornan asks there are other fire safety interventions the Scottish government should consider.

    Laura Hughes says of the BS8414: "We'd call for not using that until its been reviewed and reformed."

    Dr Glockling says building regulations do not really consider resilience and this should perhaps be considered.

    Craig Ross calls for education of the homeowner and consumer on fire safety.

    Prof Torero reiterates his call for a look at investment in education and training.

    That ends today's session.

  5. Presumption of 'stay put' in Scotland not immutable says MSPpublished at 12:36 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    SNP MSP Annabelle Ewing says in Scotland there is a presumption of "stay put", but it is not immutable.

    It's based on the decision of the commander at the incident, Ms Ewing adds.

    Grenfell Tower tenants should have been evacuated in the event of a fire, rather than told to stay put, a report for the public inquiry found.

    Prof Torero says it is painfully clear how difficult the decision making is to move away from stay put.

  6. Stop building buildings with combustible materials on outsidepublished at 12:17 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Laura Hughes says the ABI does not believe any buildings about should be built with combustible materials outside of them if they are over 11m in height, are high risk or are complex buildings.

    She accepts it is unrealistic to completely ban combustible materials for all buildings for reasons previously highlighted by Prof Torero.

  7. Background: Cladding law changes two years after Grenfell Tower tragedypublished at 11:59 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    buildingsImage source, Getty Iamges

    All new buildings in Scotland that are taller than 11 metres will have to be fitted with cladding that slows and controls the spread of fire.

    The Scottish government announced the changes to building standards two years after the deaths of 72 people in the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

    The move, which will come into force in October, also demands the inclusion of additional escape stairs.

    Each storey will also require new signs to help fire crews during evacuations.

    Read more here

  8. No formal skills required to put up claddingpublished at 11:57 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Tory MSP Graham Simpson

    Convener James Dornan asks about skills for putting cladding up.

    There are no real formal skills requirements and no real definitions, Prof Torero replies.

    Tory MSP Graham Simpson wonders if there should be a system in place to ensure the right skills are available.

    Everyone involved in the process should have a set of certain defined skills which must be corroborated, Prof Torero argues.

    "It's certainly a concern that just anyone could put cladding up," says Mr Simpson.

  9. Virtually no information available to flat ownerspublished at 11:52 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    "It's about the need to have a proper interpretation of the test," explains Prof Torero.

    He adds it is about who is interpreting the test and how it is applied on the building site.

    Green MSP Andy Wightman asks how an owner of a flat in a high rise can know about the materials on the outside of the building.

    Why should a seller have to undertake a fire risk assessment to sell a house, he asks.

    Craig Ross says in an ideal world all the relevant information would be passed to an owner but it doesn't happen.

    Mr Wightman points out if he buys a flat there is virtually no information available about the building, never mind the fire safety issue.

  10. There is no one system for inspecting cladding systemspublished at 11:49 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Laura Hughes explains how cladding has been attached to buildings can make a difference on fire safety.

    Convener James Dornan asks if this is inspected on building sites, to which Craig Ross replies "it depends".

    There is no one system for inspecting cladding systems as it is installed, he adds.

  11. Not inappropriate to introduce draconian measurespublished at 11:43 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Craig Ross calls for more harmonisation on regulations in the UK, citing good practice in England which we don't have in Scotland.

    Dr Glocking says the statistics for death in fire in the UK are generally very good indeed.

    However the spread of fire through the external envelope of a building means it would not be inappropriate to introduce draconian measures.

    He says the height is only one of the considerations and the combustibility ban should be based on the occupancy of the building not just the height.

  12. Ban on combustible materials 'unrealistic'published at 11:39 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Prof Torero

    Tory MSP Graham Simpson wonders if the use of combustible materials on high rise buildings should be banned.

    Prof Torero questions whether there is a real understanding about the implications of such a ban, going on to highlight combustible components are used frequently in buildings, including in double glazing.

    He warns against making simplistic statements about a complex problems.

    It would be "unrealistic" to have a blanket ban on all combustible materials on buildings, he adds.

  13. Background: Grenfell: Resign now, survivors tell fire chief after critical inquiry reportpublished at 11:36 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Media caption,

    Grenfell families: 'There was a serious lack of common sense'

    Survivors and bereaved relatives of the Grenfell Tower fire have called for London Fire Brigade chief Dany Cotton to resign - after a highly critical report, external from the inquiry into the blaze.

    The report said some of the 72 people who were killed could have been saved if the building was evacuated sooner.

    The Grenfell United group said it was "heartbreaking" to read, and some relatives want senior staff prosecuted.

    The LFB said it was "disappointed" by some of the criticism of individuals.

  14. Building standards system should be enhancedpublished at 11:32 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Craig Ross from the Royal Institution of Chartered SurveyorsImage source, bbc
    Image caption,

    Craig Ross from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors

    Dr Jim Glockling says there is a susceptibility in-built in the assumption of perfection in buildings and he thinks tests can be changed to address this.

    Ms Boyack asks how confident the witnesses are that the local authorities have the expertise they need.

    Craig Ross from the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors replies that in terms of the collective pool across 32 local authorities there is the skills and expertise, however individual councils may not have it.

    Having the centralised building standards system in Scotland is strong, he adds.

    Mr Ross calls for an enhancement of the existing building standards system, in a perfect world with more funding.

  15. Background: Bolton flats blaze: Student flats' cladding 'a concern'published at 11:29 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Fire in cube in ManchesterImage source, bbc

    Cladding on a block of student flats that was hit by a major blaze is a cause for "concern", Greater Manchester's mayor has said.

    Two people were hurt when about 100 residents fled The Cube in Bolton after a blaze on Friday.

    Mayor Andy Burnham said its cladding was not the same as at Grenfell Tower, where 72 people died in 2017.

    But cladding is a "bigger issue... than we have so far faced up to," Mr Burnham admitted.

  16. Call for detailed compliance plans for constructionpublished at 11:26 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Mr Ross says there is evidence of quality issues on sites due to a move away from the clerk of works roles (often referred to as site inspectors).

    He suggests there needs to be a detailed compliance plan.

    Ms Hughes agrees there are issues with levels of competence and understanding of roles within the construction process.

  17. Background: Building Regulations and Fire Safety in Scotland reportpublished at 11:24 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    BuildingsImage source, Scottish Parliament

    During early 2017, the Local Government and Communities Committee agreed to undertake an inquiry into the building standards verification process.

    The remit was extended in June 2017 to focus on the fire safety aspects of the Scottish building standards system, following the Grenfell Tower tragedy.

    The committee published its report on Building Standards and Fire Safety on 30October 2017, external, followed by a debate on 23 November 2017.

    It called for the recently established Ministerial Working Group on Building and Fire Safety to:

    • carry out its work as timeously as possible, whilst ensuring a thorough review is completed across the relevant building stock in Scotland
    • review current building and fire safety regulations in Scotland in light of Grenfell and make any necessary changes to ensure that the risk of any similar tragedy is minimised to the fullest degree that is possible.

    The Scottish government responded to the report on 19 December 2017, external.

  18. Are the fire safety verification procedures robust enough?published at 11:22 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Ms BoyackImage source, bbc

    Ms Boyack asks if the verification procedures are robust enough in terms of fire safety.

    Prof Torero says in the case of cladding, the process must be done during the construction process as after that you'd have to break the building apart to test it.

    The academic from University College London says the process should be driven by competent professionals.

  19. Fire safety test better than many but needs developing furtherpublished at 11:19 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Dr Jim Glockling from the Fire Prevention Association

    Dr Jim Glockling from the Fire Prevention Association says consideration of the BS8414 fire safety test concluded while it was a better option than many, it still needed development.

    This has been used as a test of materials rather than a test of system and is frequently not used by end users, he adds.

    We test many things in our laboratories but currently they are all tied up with existing buildings, Dr Glockling says.

    In sum, there are key issues with scale and how the test gets conducted he concludes.

  20. Mistakes are made in the absence of competent professionalspublished at 11:13 Greenwich Mean Time 20 November 2019

    Professor Jose Torero from the University College LondonImage source, bbc
    Image caption,

    Professor Jose Torero from the University College London

    Professor Jose Torero from the University College London says the fundamental problem is that for the system to work there must be competent professionals.

    He says it is not the regulations that are the issue.

    Prof Torero says that in the absence of competent professionals, mistakes are made.

    Scotland doesn't really have a proper definition of competency in terms of building safety, he suggests.