Gail Ross asks about the contract that is in development now, adding Future Pathways will not refer survivors to Wellbeing Scotland at the moment.

Mr Swinney commits to ensuring survivors are getting the support they require.

It is not healthy or appropriate for both organisations to be supporting an individual and we need to have a certain amount of understanding about who is supporting who, he elucidates.

Image source, bbc

Ms Ross said one of the barriers was about the level of information Future Pathways wanted.

Mr Swinney replies he doesn't think Future Pathways are seeking inappropriate levels of information, rather they want basic contact information.

Survivors say they feel the level of information being asked for is inappropriate, says Ms Ross.

The education secretary agrees to look into this but says the support coordinators struck him as devoted in trying to get the good outcomes for the survivors.

Convener Johann Lamont says there were concerns about a move to a brokerage model which was not person-centred.

"We listened carefully to survivors and survivors gave us the strong view that a person-centred approach was the way to proceed," replies Mr Swinney.

He adds: "I'm not sure I understand or could explain the difference between a person-centred model and a brokerage model because I think they are one and the same thing."

John Swinney says the government is committed to providing personal and high quality care to survivors of abuse.

Regarding Future Pathways, external, he says he appreciates there have been challenges along the way but we have made good progress in meeting them.

A formal agreement between Future Pathways and Wellbeing Scotland, external will improve the process of referrals and ensure survivors get the support of their choice, he adds.

Mr Swinney accepts there have been criticisms from survivors, particularly on waiting lists, but action has been taken to address this and the government will continue to take feedback.

The petition urges the Scottish government to retain theIn Care Survivor Scotland, externalservice.

The petitioners have expressed concern that the model of funding had moved to one of brokerage, instead of the service receiving core funding.

Other issues around requiring a clinical diagnosis to access services have also been raised.

Future Pathways was set up to oversee the in care survivor support fund. While some organisations believe it complements a range of services available, other has warned they have "a subservient power dynamic" with it.

John Swinney will finally give evidence on this next petition on the In Care Survivors Service Scotland, external.

He will be joined by Jamie MacDougall, a Scottish government official.

SNP MSP Gail Ross says a lot of the issues are being addressed, but monitoring must continue and she suggests the petition is passed onto the Education and Skills Committee.

Committee convener Johann Lamont agrees and says it should be seen in the context in the review of additional support needs.

MSPs unanimously agree to refer the petition to the committee.

De-escalation approaches should be the first response to behaviour issues Mr Swinney says, adding anything else is detrimental to young people.

Teachers must be equipped to deal with conflict in this way which is why continuous learning within the profession is important, he adds.

Asked about the short-life working group, Mr Swinney says he is confident there will be lived experience around the table.

Image source, BARBARA GOURLAY

Daniel Gourlay from Inverness was five years old when he was first physically restrained at school by his teachers.

Now 12, and with a diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder and Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) disorder, his mum Barbara said she has lost count of the number of times he has been restrained.

She said: "I knew that something wasn't quite right with Daniel when he was about 18 months old. I have two older children and as a mum I just knew, but healthcare professionals made me feel like I was imagining things saying instead that he was going through the terrible twos or had separation anxiety.

"His dad died when he was five, so it coincided with the trauma he felt then too - but still I knew and yet no one listened."

Daniel was diagnosed with autism and PDA, when he was nine, by which time Barbara says he had been labelled as a "bad kid" and a "lost cause" at school.

Barbara, who is supporting Enable's campaign, added: "It's heartbreaking, especially when you know that it's their human right to have an education, to feel safe and to feel that the adults around them care about them as an individual."

Image source, Andrew Cowan

SNP MSP Gail Ross cites "harrowing" evidence given by the petitioner about injuries caused by restraint in schools.

Will this updated guidance ensure this never happens again in schools, she asks.

We don't want any of the examples cited by the petitioner to be the experience of children, insists the education secretary.

He adds: "Schools must be a place of safety and reassurance for every child in Scotland."

Restraint must only happen when all other options have been exhausted and in a safe and appropriate fashion, he says.

That was not the case in the examples Ms Ross put to him, the education secretary tells the committee.

He says he doesn't have the power currently to make the guidance statutory in this area, adding it would take longer to put in place.

Image source, bbc

Committee conenver Johann Lamont says there have been media reports this week that suggest the Scottish government is changing its position on restraint.

The education secretary says there have been a number of significant developments working with the Equality and Human Rights Commission, external and the Children and Young People's Commissioner Scotland, external.

He tells the committee the Scottish government will provide new guidance.

Mr Swinney says this will minimise the use of physical intervention and seclusion.

He says the government accepted some of the recommendations in the Children and Young People's Commisoner Scotland's report No Safe Place, external, however the government were unable to agree with them all.

Physical restraint should only ever be used as a last resort and should never be used for disciplinary purposes, insists the minister.

A working group will develop the guidelines which will be published in January 2021, with a review set for a year later he confirms.

Campaigners have called for stricter rules around the use of restraint and seclusion in schools.

Enable Scotland said the current system was putting children at risk of physical and psychological harm.

It wants more staff who are trained in supporting positive behaviours in classrooms following 2,674 incidents reported incidents last year.

The Scottish government said it was investing £15m in additional support for learning assistants.

Read more.

The committee moves on the a petition on national guidance on restraint and seclusion in schools, external.

Giving evidence are:

• Education Secretary John Swinney
• Melanie Lowe, Scottish government official

First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has published a document setting out her case for another independence referendum.

The 38-page document includes sections entitled "the EU referendum and the Scottish government’s mandate" and "the material change of circumstances".

In her introduction, Nicola Sturgeon says she wants a referendum by the end of 2020.

"Scotland is not a region questioning its place in a larger unitary state; we are a country in a voluntary union of nations," she writes.

"Our friends in the rest of the UK will always be our closest allies and neighbours but in line with the principle of self-determination, people in Scotland have the right to determine whether the time has come for a new, better relationship, in which we can thrive as a genuine partnership of equals."

You can see the document in full here., external

The convener says the comments made today are "very encouraging" and there is "clearly a plan".

She praises the young St Andrews volunteers and recommends closing the petition, which the committee duly agrees to do.

Image source, bbc

Tory MSP Brian Whittle highlights the importance of resilience and building confidence that can be achieved by this type of training.

"The arguments here don't hinge on money," replies Mr Swinney.

It's about to what extent we prescribe in terms of the curriculum, he elucidates.

The education secretary however accepts making materials more accessible for teachers is desirable.

Mr Swinney says teachers are already asked to deliver many things and we must avoid asking too much of them.

Getting volunteers from various organisations to come forward to support teachers would help us address some of these issues he adds.

I want to see us establish good contact networks between first aid organisations and schools, he says.

He adds that materials for schools will also help to boost the confidence of teachers to deliver first aid training.