Last but not least... first minister to give evidence tomorrow
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media
That’s a wrap for today - but this week’s action is far from over.Tomorrow, the Covid inquiry will hear evidence from outgoing First Minister Mark Drakeford.
He will face a host of questions about how seriously the threat of the virus was being taken by the Welsh government in early 2020.
And like his fellow ministers today, there’s likely to be significant focus on the relationship with UK government, and his use of WhatsApp, including the deletion of messages.
But central to the session will be questions on the much-criticised policy around testing patients discharged to care homes and the asymptomatic testing of all care home residents and staff.
For more what we can expect from Drakeford, click here.
Then finally on Thursday, we will hear closing statements as the UK Covid-19 inquiry’s three-week stay in Wales comes to an end.
This page was edited by Emma Owen, Jack Burgess and Peter Shuttleworth. The writers were Catriona Aitken, Jenny Rees, Steve Duffy, Craig Hutchison, Malu Cursino, Jake Lapham and Emily Atkinson.
Thanks for joining us.
Analysis
Wales reliant on Westminster to fund another pandemic
Huw Thomas
Business correspondent, BBC Wales
Interesting hearing from Rebecca Evans earlier who controlled the purse strings for the Welsh government.
But the finance minister's evidence made clear that many of the financial decisions affecting Wales' Covid response were being made in Westminster.
She recalled a lack of clarity over whether plans being announced by the UK government would result in increased funding for Wales’ pandemic response. The reliance on a Barnett funding formula when budgets were being re-prioritised in Whitehall added to the uncertainty.
There were “huge pressures” on Welsh ministers and civil servants as they attempted to make financial commitments without having clarity about their final budget.
Evans agreed that there was a reliance on Westminster for the bulk of the financial support for businesses, accepting that furlough and the Eat Out to Help Out scheme could not have been funded by the Welsh government.
In cabinet meetings, Evans said her role was to consider the financial implications of Covid policies ministers were debating - and these implications were particularly acute in planning a Wales-specific firebreak lockdown in October 2020.
Greater financial clarity between governments may be required in future, but Evans’ evidence made clear that the Welsh government’s ability to fund another pandemic response would depend just as heavily on the decisions taken in Westminster.
How sewage helped track Covid variants
Steve Duffy
BBC Wales
Another interesting line from earlier today was how spikes of Covid were being detected by sampling sewage waste from locations across Wales.
Eluned Morgan explained how the Bangor University-led project helped help track the virus across the country, using samples from 48 different locations.
“Because this was quite a new science, what was interesting was comparing it
to the ONS data - and it seemed to track the ONS data for the most part," Wales' health minister told the inquiry.
"But the
difference was this was very much real-time, but also gave us an insight into what
types of variants were circulating in Wales."
Morgan says
it meant they were aware of the presence of Omicron variant in Wales much
sooner than they otherwise would have been.
She adds: “It
was helpful in giving us the confidence on when we could relax some of the restrictions
because we could know where, across the whole of Wales, the virus was coming down.”
Morgan says
it was “with reluctance” that the £5m pilot scheme was switched off in August 2023 because of budget constraints - but has since been re-started.
BBCCopyright: BBC
That's it for today - here's what we learned
That’s the end of today’s hearings. Let’s take a look back at all the key lines from today:
Current Welsh health minister Eluned Morgan conceded that Wales should have prepared more for the pandemic and that the government’s approach throughout Covid was to “err on the side of caution”
She also expressed frustration over decisions made by the UK government and said the issue of finance during a "firebreak" in October 2020 left many in Wales feeling like "second class citizens”
Rebecca Evans, minister for finance and local government, told the hearing that Wales was in a "very, very uncomfortable place" during Covid
She also said there was no "rhyme or reason" for the UK government denying, then later allowing, the Welsh government "full access" to the £350m Welsh reserve to support efforts to manage the pandemic
Jeremy Miles, education minister and a contender to be Wales' next first minister, told the inquiry that the Welsh government did not have the power to close schools in March 2020
He also defended Wales’ choice to set fines for breaches of Covid rules, including the £10,000 fine given for the organisation of unlicensed music events, or raves
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Current Health Minister Eluned Morgan gave evidence to the inquiry about her plea to First Minister Mark Drakeford to stop ‘bus loads of pensioners’ arriving in WalesImage caption: Current Health Minister Eluned Morgan gave evidence to the inquiry about her plea to First Minister Mark Drakeford to stop ‘bus loads of pensioners’ arriving in Wales
What could have been done better?
Miles is
asked about how the pandemic could have been handled better, to which he says the Welsh
government “learned lessons as we went along”.
“I think
there is a larger reflection in that the trajectory of the virus started
necessarily with a regulatory response, which takes you into the territory of ‘what
can I do, what can’t I do?’.
“By the time
we got to the later stages of 2020, we realised a simpler, smaller series of
messages would be more appropriate.”
'Confusion over criminal charges inevitable'
The inquiry is reminded of a review by the Crown Prosecution Service which showed that of 231 lockdown-related charges, 56 were incorrect, with examples of Welsh regulations used in England and vice versa.
Addressing this, Miles says it was inevitable there would be some confusion over criminal charges for breaching lockdown restrictions.
Wales' education minister adds that the scale of the changes being brought in, and the rapidity of that meant “inevitably that would create some confusion.”
Drakeford criticised for not giving Senedd more answers
Daniel Davies
BBC Wales political correspondent
BBCCopyright: BBC
Away from the inquiry, in his penultimate first minister's question time, Mark Drakeford was criticised for refusing to answer questions about the pandemic in the Senedd before he gives evidence to the inquiry.
The first minister will answer questions under oath all day tomorrow.
Welsh Conservative leader Andrew RT Davies asked why Drakeford was able to “wax lyrical” about Covid in a Times Radio interview at the weekend, after declining to answer questions about WhatsApp in the Senedd.
The first minister said his answers in the interview were “carefully crafted" and he only said things that had been heard "on the floor of the Senedd and elsewhere”.
Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iorwerth said it “will be seen as an attempt to avoid parliamentary scrutiny”. In response, Drakeford accused him of making a “nonsensical accusation”.
Drakeford has repeatedly refused to commission a separate Welsh Covid inquiry - which the Conservatives and Plaid have called for, saying the UK inquiry is the best way to get answers.
Ministerial advice later recommended the removal of this fine, with a prosecution requirement instead, but the "police wanted to retain" the ability to issue fines for this, the inquiry hears.
Miles says ministers were considering the "deterrent effect" of the consequence options available.
Video content
Video caption: When 3,000 ravers descended on a Welsh village during the pandemic, instead of panicking, Baden and Mary Powell put the kettle onWhen 3,000 ravers descended on a Welsh village during the pandemic, instead of panicking, Baden and Mary Powell put the kettle on
Was the five-mile stay local guidance 'confusing'?
Miles is
grilled about the controversial “stay local” guidance which came in
to replace "stay at home" messaging as infections eased in May 2020.
The inquiry
hears the Welsh government felt “it was not possible to legislate to define
local, as it would mean different things in different parts of Wales”, for
example in rural areas versus urban.
Miles is
asked why a five-mile travel guide was brought in, in what he describes
as a “rule of thumb”.
Tom Poole KC puts to him that it was "confusing".
Miles says ministers
had previously seen confusion when they had not put a number on the distance for
daily exercise, adding: “breadth can be confusing and specificity can be
confusing”.
Miles says
giving a five-mile guide was an “intuitive way of communicating” with the
public.
"In a rapidly changing regulatory environment, when you’re legislating in a novel way, in ways which touch all aspects of people’s lives, I think the term we had here – it’s a rule of thumb – it seemed to me this was an intuitive way of communicating, then five miles is a pretty good guide.”
Asked if the
Welsh government was simply copying Scotland, he adds: “Elsewhere, there were
calls for governments not to choose regulations, distances and measurements
that were different to other governments just for the sake of it.”
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
'More Covid impact assessments needed'
Miles confirms that, at a cabinet meeting ahead of a firebreak lockdown in October 2020, he reiterated to ministers the importance of carrying out impact assessments on each action taken during the pandemic.
But the education minister tells the inquiry "there was a question of proportionality" when considering whether such assessments were needed for each separate local lockdown being carried out at the time.
Miles adds he’d like to see impact assessments done on a broader range of
issues - including children’s safety and socio-economic impact – “if we were
ever to face a similar thing again”.
Analysis
Miles pressed on school closure decisions
Bethan Lewis
BBC Wales Family & Education Correspondent
As education minister, Jeremy Miles is seeing the lasting impact of school closures and the wider pandemic on children and young people.
Attendance levels are still far lower than they were and many pupils continue to struggle with the routine of being in school every day.
But he was asked, as the Welsh government’s chief legal officer at the time, about the announcement to close schools in March 2020.
He confirmed the Welsh government did not have the power to close schools – that power was held with local authorities and school governing bodies and that no legal advice was asked for.
Saying that, Miles explained that the ministerial statement gave “purpose” to decisions being made by different schools across Wales to close anyway.
There were other times during the pandemic when strong statements by ministers about schools weren’t always within their powers to enforce.
On this occasion, Miles said everyone was glad of the national direction.
Should public health be top priority?
We're back after the break and Jeremy Miles' evidence continues.
Before our cuppa, the education minister was asked if public health had to be the top consideration when reviewing the impact
of Covid, with other knock-on factors such as the economy being “secondary”.
“It’s a balance
of harms”, he responds, adding “later documents” from the Welsh government
issued “a broader set of guidelines”.
“It’s
critical to recognise the indirect harms of Covid and the restrictions,” he
says.
Asked why an
initial review did not specifically touch on the impact on vulnerable groups,
Miles says “there is an acknowledgment” of differing consequences for particular
groups but “that was set out much more clearly” in following reviews.
It's break time...
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Time for a short tea break. Here's what we've heard from Education Minister Jeremy Miles so far:
Miles admitted that deleting his WhatsApp messages from the pandemic was the wrong assumption at the wrong time, and said he wished he had kept them
Later, he said the UK government's Coronavirus Act 2020 was a "good example of cross-governmental working" - which benefitted from "good input" from the Welsh government
Jeremy Miles
explains that, as he was minister for European integration he was used to
dealing with coordinated working, and so was tasked by the first minister to “identify
with colleagues where there were projects that engaged more than one portfolio
and required some cross-governmental coordination”.
He says he
would “identify a problem, identify what the solution might be” and then
develop a plan around who would be needed within that.
Food parcels for shielding residents was one of the projects which needed cross-governmental working, says MilesImage caption: Food parcels for shielding residents was one of the projects which needed cross-governmental working, says Miles
'Government advised shut schools without having legal power'
Matthew HorwoodCopyright: Matthew Horwood
When Wales announced all schools would shut at the start of the pandemic, the Welsh government didn't technically have the legal power to do it.
Cardiff Bay universally shut schools on 18 March 2020 and speaking to the inquiry, Wales' current education minister says
guidance sent by his predecessor Kirsty Williams to local authorities was “welcomed”.
Miles said it was providing a "very clear sense of direction” to the education sector at a time when schools were starting to close themselves.
“What the minister is doing is sending a clear statement to local authorities of what the Welsh government wanted to see,” he tells the inquiry.
“I think
that was welcomed because schools were taking their own decisions to close, so seeing
this was happening on a national basis [was helpful to them].”
Officials were already planning on 4 March for school closures and changes to the exam system.
In the event, schools were techncally not closed but “repurposed” to help key workers and educate vulnerable children.
Mr Miles says it would have been preferable to have had legal advice beforehand, although there was retrospective advice.
Coronavirus Bill ‘an example of good joint working’
Miles says
the Coronavirus Bill, which later became the Coronavirus Act 2020, was a “good example
of cross-governmental working”.
The education minister says he
was not overly involved in the UK government’s Coronavirus Bill when it first appeared
on a Welsh sub-committee agenda in February 2020, but was aware Wales had had “good input”
into it and became increasingly more involved.
“It happened
very quickly, but I think it was an example of good joint working,” he says.
“It wasn’t
particularly convenient for our Senedd timetable, but in these circumstances one
accommodates that, naturally.”
Miles admits deleting WhatsApps was 'wrong assumption'
As we reported on a few posts ago, the subject of WhatsApp and Welsh ministers is a key topic to this inquiry - and that extends to Jeremy Miles too.
The first question to Jeremy Miles is about WhatsApp and he is asked if he accepts it was wrong to use WhatsApp on his personal phone to discuss government business.
The education minister explains the policy is that WhatsApp should not be downloaded to government phones, so he had colleagues message him on his personal phone.
He says he was not aware that using his phone was contrary to the guidance.
Miles insists he regarded these messages as "chat between work colleagues", not the content which he would regard to be relevant to decision making.
After having his phone stolen in 2017, he says he was conscious of personal security and so his practice was to delete messages.
But concedes: "I wish I had kept them."
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images
Who is Jeremy Miles?
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Jeremy Miles was appointed to his role as Wales' education minister in May 2021.
Before that, Miles was the Welsh government's counsel general - or officer in charge of laws in Wales - and minister for European integration as well as being tasked with Covid recovery.
He is currently competing head-to-head with Wales' Economy Minister Vaughan Gething to be Welsh Labour's next leader - and therefore become Wales' next first minister.
We're back after lunch...
PiranhaCopyright: Piranha
Baroness Hallett previously led the inquests into the 7 July London bombingsImage caption: Baroness Hallett previously led the inquests into the 7 July London bombings
We hope you enjoyed your sandwiches and we're back underway after lunch - with Wales' Education Minister Jeremy Miles at the stand
Just as a quck reminder to what the UK Covid-19 Inquiry is - it was launched by Boris Johnson, the UK's prime minister throughout Covid, to look into decision-making and handling of the pandemic in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Inquiries respond to "public concern" about events and are established and funded by government - led by an independent chair.
In this case former judge and crossbench peer Baroness Hallett is in the chair.
Inquiries can demand evidence and compel witnesses to attend. No-one is found guilty or innocent, but conclusions are published. The government is not obliged to accept any recommendations.
The Covid inquiry began on 28 June 2022 and is in the final week of hearing evidence in Wales before heading to Northern Ireland.
There is no specific timescale for how long the inquiry will last but Lady Hallett does not expect the public hearings to run beyond summer 2026.
'My WhatsApp evidence wasn't misleading'
While we're on WhatsApps... Rebecca Evans' statement to the Covid inquiry last November said she only used WhatsApp informally during the pandemic - like to
congratulate a colleague on their performance at a press conference.
But in a follow-up statement a month later, she amended her use of WhatsApp and messaging.
The inquiry is shown an exchange of WhatsApps from the counsel representing bereaved families whole lost loved ones to Covid.
One message asks about rules about outdoor concerts while another in October 2020 in an exchange with Vaughan Gething about Senedd business.
Evans denies
being “wrong and misleading” in her first statement, telling the inquiry: “I’ve provided the inquiry with extensive WhatsApp and text messages.
"What you’re seeing here [the exchange with Mr Gething] is absolutely nothing to do with the Covid inquiry. It relates to the legislature and I think to votes at 16 and 17 and nothing to do with Covid 19. It’s a discussion, it says it’s a matter for the legislature."
Live Reporting
Catriona Aitken and Peter Shuttleworth
All times stated are UK
PA MediaCopyright: PA Media Analysis
BBCCopyright: BBC -
Current Welsh health minister Eluned Morgan conceded that Wales should have prepared more for the pandemic and that the government’s approach throughout Covid was to “err on the side of caution”
-
She also expressed frustration over decisions made by the UK government and said the issue of finance during a "firebreak" in October 2020 left many in Wales feeling like "second class citizens”
- Rebecca Evans, minister for finance and local government, told the hearing that Wales was in a "very, very uncomfortable place" during Covid
-
She also said there was no "rhyme or reason" for the UK government denying, then later allowing, the Welsh government "full access" to the £350m Welsh reserve to support efforts to manage the pandemic
- Jeremy Miles, education minister and a contender to be Wales' next first minister, told the inquiry that the Welsh government did not have the power to close schools in March 2020
-
He also defended Wales’ choice to set fines for breaches of Covid rules, including the £10,000 fine given for the organisation of unlicensed music events, or raves
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry Current Health Minister Eluned Morgan gave evidence to the inquiry about her plea to First Minister Mark Drakeford to stop ‘bus loads of pensioners’ arriving in WalesImage caption: Current Health Minister Eluned Morgan gave evidence to the inquiry about her plea to First Minister Mark Drakeford to stop ‘bus loads of pensioners’ arriving in Wales 
BBCCopyright: BBC Video caption: When 3,000 ravers descended on a Welsh village during the pandemic, instead of panicking, Baden and Mary Powell put the kettle onWhen 3,000 ravers descended on a Welsh village during the pandemic, instead of panicking, Baden and Mary Powell put the kettle on 
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images Analysis
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry -
Miles admitted that deleting his WhatsApp messages from the pandemic was the wrong assumption at the wrong time, and said he wished he had kept them
-
Later, he said the UK government's Coronavirus Act 2020 was a "good example of cross-governmental working" - which benefitted from "good input" from the Welsh government
-
Miles also told the inquiry that the Welsh government did not have the power to close schools in March 2020, but that guidance sent by then-education minister Kirsty Williams was "welcomed" by local authorities
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images Food parcels for shielding residents was one of the projects which needed cross-governmental working, says MilesImage caption: Food parcels for shielding residents was one of the projects which needed cross-governmental working, says Miles 
Matthew HorwoodCopyright: Matthew Horwood 
Getty ImagesCopyright: Getty Images 
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry 
PiranhaCopyright: Piranha Baroness Hallett previously led the inquests into the 7 July London bombingsImage caption: Baroness Hallett previously led the inquests into the 7 July London bombings 
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry 
UK Covid-19 InquiryCopyright: UK Covid-19 Inquiry
Latest PostLast but not least... first minister to give evidence tomorrow
That’s a wrap for today - but this week’s action is far from over.Tomorrow, the Covid inquiry will hear evidence from outgoing First Minister Mark Drakeford.
He will face a host of questions about how seriously the threat of the virus was being taken by the Welsh government in early 2020.
And like his fellow ministers today, there’s likely to be significant focus on the relationship with UK government, and his use of WhatsApp, including the deletion of messages.
But central to the session will be questions on the much-criticised policy around testing patients discharged to care homes and the asymptomatic testing of all care home residents and staff.
For more what we can expect from Drakeford, click here.
Then finally on Thursday, we will hear closing statements as the UK Covid-19 inquiry’s three-week stay in Wales comes to an end.
This page was edited by Emma Owen, Jack Burgess and Peter Shuttleworth. The writers were Catriona Aitken, Jenny Rees, Steve Duffy, Craig Hutchison, Malu Cursino, Jake Lapham and Emily Atkinson.
Thanks for joining us.
Wales reliant on Westminster to fund another pandemic
Huw Thomas
Business correspondent, BBC Wales
Interesting hearing from Rebecca Evans earlier who controlled the purse strings for the Welsh government.
But the finance minister's evidence made clear that many of the financial decisions affecting Wales' Covid response were being made in Westminster.
She recalled a lack of clarity over whether plans being announced by the UK government would result in increased funding for Wales’ pandemic response. The reliance on a Barnett funding formula when budgets were being re-prioritised in Whitehall added to the uncertainty.
There were “huge pressures” on Welsh ministers and civil servants as they attempted to make financial commitments without having clarity about their final budget.
Evans agreed that there was a reliance on Westminster for the bulk of the financial support for businesses, accepting that furlough and the Eat Out to Help Out scheme could not have been funded by the Welsh government.
In cabinet meetings, Evans said her role was to consider the financial implications of Covid policies ministers were debating - and these implications were particularly acute in planning a Wales-specific firebreak lockdown in October 2020.
Greater financial clarity between governments may be required in future, but Evans’ evidence made clear that the Welsh government’s ability to fund another pandemic response would depend just as heavily on the decisions taken in Westminster.
How sewage helped track Covid variants
Steve Duffy
BBC Wales
Another interesting line from earlier today was how spikes of Covid were being detected by sampling sewage waste from locations across Wales.
Eluned Morgan explained how the Bangor University-led project helped help track the virus across the country, using samples from 48 different locations.
“Because this was quite a new science, what was interesting was comparing it to the ONS data - and it seemed to track the ONS data for the most part," Wales' health minister told the inquiry.
"But the difference was this was very much real-time, but also gave us an insight into what types of variants were circulating in Wales."
Morgan says it meant they were aware of the presence of Omicron variant in Wales much sooner than they otherwise would have been.
She adds: “It was helpful in giving us the confidence on when we could relax some of the restrictions because we could know where, across the whole of Wales, the virus was coming down.”
Morgan says it was “with reluctance” that the £5m pilot scheme was switched off in August 2023 because of budget constraints - but has since been re-started.
That's it for today - here's what we learned
That’s the end of today’s hearings. Let’s take a look back at all the key lines from today:
What could have been done better?
Miles is asked about how the pandemic could have been handled better, to which he says the Welsh government “learned lessons as we went along”.
“I think there is a larger reflection in that the trajectory of the virus started necessarily with a regulatory response, which takes you into the territory of ‘what can I do, what can’t I do?’.
“By the time we got to the later stages of 2020, we realised a simpler, smaller series of messages would be more appropriate.”
'Confusion over criminal charges inevitable'
The inquiry is reminded of a review by the Crown Prosecution Service which showed that of 231 lockdown-related charges, 56 were incorrect, with examples of Welsh regulations used in England and vice versa.
Addressing this, Miles says it was inevitable there would be some confusion over criminal charges for breaching lockdown restrictions.
Wales' education minister adds that the scale of the changes being brought in, and the rapidity of that meant “inevitably that would create some confusion.”
Drakeford criticised for not giving Senedd more answers
Daniel Davies
BBC Wales political correspondent
Away from the inquiry, in his penultimate first minister's question time, Mark Drakeford was criticised for refusing to answer questions about the pandemic in the Senedd before he gives evidence to the inquiry.
The first minister will answer questions under oath all day tomorrow.
Welsh Conservative leader Andrew RT Davies asked why Drakeford was able to “wax lyrical” about Covid in a Times Radio interview at the weekend, after declining to answer questions about WhatsApp in the Senedd.
The first minister said his answers in the interview were “carefully crafted" and he only said things that had been heard "on the floor of the Senedd and elsewhere”.
Plaid Cymru leader Rhun ap Iorwerth said it “will be seen as an attempt to avoid parliamentary scrutiny”. In response, Drakeford accused him of making a “nonsensical accusation”.
Drakeford has repeatedly refused to commission a separate Welsh Covid inquiry - which the Conservatives and Plaid have called for, saying the UK inquiry is the best way to get answers.
Miles defends 'exceptionally high' rave fines
Miles is asked to justify Wales’ choice to set fines for breaches of Covid rules, in particular the £10,000 fine given for organisation of unlicensed music events, or raves.
“[Given] the risks that would arise from such an event, we felt it was acceptable to have a notice of that level.”
Miles says that just a few days’ after this legislation came in, there was an event of this kind which occurred in his own constituency of Neath.
Ministerial advice later recommended the removal of this fine, with a prosecution requirement instead, but the "police wanted to retain" the ability to issue fines for this, the inquiry hears.
Miles says ministers were considering the "deterrent effect" of the consequence options available.
Video content
Was the five-mile stay local guidance 'confusing'?
Miles is grilled about the controversial “stay local” guidance which came in to replace "stay at home" messaging as infections eased in May 2020.
The inquiry hears the Welsh government felt “it was not possible to legislate to define local, as it would mean different things in different parts of Wales”, for example in rural areas versus urban.
Miles is asked why a five-mile travel guide was brought in, in what he describes as a “rule of thumb”.
Tom Poole KC puts to him that it was "confusing".
Miles says ministers had previously seen confusion when they had not put a number on the distance for daily exercise, adding: “breadth can be confusing and specificity can be confusing”.
Miles says giving a five-mile guide was an “intuitive way of communicating” with the public.
"In a rapidly changing regulatory environment, when you’re legislating in a novel way, in ways which touch all aspects of people’s lives, I think the term we had here – it’s a rule of thumb – it seemed to me this was an intuitive way of communicating, then five miles is a pretty good guide.”
Asked if the Welsh government was simply copying Scotland, he adds: “Elsewhere, there were calls for governments not to choose regulations, distances and measurements that were different to other governments just for the sake of it.”
'More Covid impact assessments needed'
Miles confirms that, at a cabinet meeting ahead of a firebreak lockdown in October 2020, he reiterated to ministers the importance of carrying out impact assessments on each action taken during the pandemic.
But the education minister tells the inquiry "there was a question of proportionality" when considering whether such assessments were needed for each separate local lockdown being carried out at the time.
Miles adds he’d like to see impact assessments done on a broader range of issues - including children’s safety and socio-economic impact – “if we were ever to face a similar thing again”.
Miles pressed on school closure decisions
Bethan Lewis
BBC Wales Family & Education Correspondent
As education minister, Jeremy Miles is seeing the lasting impact of school closures and the wider pandemic on children and young people.
Attendance levels are still far lower than they were and many pupils continue to struggle with the routine of being in school every day.
But he was asked, as the Welsh government’s chief legal officer at the time, about the announcement to close schools in March 2020.
He confirmed the Welsh government did not have the power to close schools – that power was held with local authorities and school governing bodies and that no legal advice was asked for.
Saying that, Miles explained that the ministerial statement gave “purpose” to decisions being made by different schools across Wales to close anyway.
There were other times during the pandemic when strong statements by ministers about schools weren’t always within their powers to enforce.
On this occasion, Miles said everyone was glad of the national direction.
Should public health be top priority?
We're back after the break and Jeremy Miles' evidence continues.
Before our cuppa, the education minister was asked if public health had to be the top consideration when reviewing the impact of Covid, with other knock-on factors such as the economy being “secondary”.
“It’s a balance of harms”, he responds, adding “later documents” from the Welsh government issued “a broader set of guidelines”.
“It’s critical to recognise the indirect harms of Covid and the restrictions,” he says.
Asked why an initial review did not specifically touch on the impact on vulnerable groups, Miles says “there is an acknowledgment” of differing consequences for particular groups but “that was set out much more clearly” in following reviews.
It's break time...
Time for a short tea break. Here's what we've heard from Education Minister Jeremy Miles so far:
Coordinating cross-governmental working
Jeremy Miles explains that, as he was minister for European integration he was used to dealing with coordinated working, and so was tasked by the first minister to “identify with colleagues where there were projects that engaged more than one portfolio and required some cross-governmental coordination”.
He says he would “identify a problem, identify what the solution might be” and then develop a plan around who would be needed within that.
For example, Miles tells the inquiry, a project to provide food parcels to people who were shielding crossed over five or six different portfolios.
'Government advised shut schools without having legal power'
When Wales announced all schools would shut at the start of the pandemic, the Welsh government didn't technically have the legal power to do it.
Cardiff Bay universally shut schools on 18 March 2020 and speaking to the inquiry, Wales' current education minister says guidance sent by his predecessor Kirsty Williams to local authorities was “welcomed”.
Miles said it was providing a "very clear sense of direction” to the education sector at a time when schools were starting to close themselves.
“What the minister is doing is sending a clear statement to local authorities of what the Welsh government wanted to see,” he tells the inquiry.
“I think that was welcomed because schools were taking their own decisions to close, so seeing this was happening on a national basis [was helpful to them].”
Officials were already planning on 4 March for school closures and changes to the exam system. In the event, schools were techncally not closed but “repurposed” to help key workers and educate vulnerable children.
Mr Miles says it would have been preferable to have had legal advice beforehand, although there was retrospective advice.
Coronavirus Bill ‘an example of good joint working’
Miles says the Coronavirus Bill, which later became the Coronavirus Act 2020, was a “good example of cross-governmental working”.
The education minister says he was not overly involved in the UK government’s Coronavirus Bill when it first appeared on a Welsh sub-committee agenda in February 2020, but was aware Wales had had “good input” into it and became increasingly more involved.
“It happened very quickly, but I think it was an example of good joint working,” he says.
“It wasn’t particularly convenient for our Senedd timetable, but in these circumstances one accommodates that, naturally.”
Miles admits deleting WhatsApps was 'wrong assumption'
As we reported on a few posts ago, the subject of WhatsApp and Welsh ministers is a key topic to this inquiry - and that extends to Jeremy Miles too.
The first question to Jeremy Miles is about WhatsApp and he is asked if he accepts it was wrong to use WhatsApp on his personal phone to discuss government business.
The education minister explains the policy is that WhatsApp should not be downloaded to government phones, so he had colleagues message him on his personal phone.
He says he was not aware that using his phone was contrary to the guidance.
Miles insists he regarded these messages as "chat between work colleagues", not the content which he would regard to be relevant to decision making.
After having his phone stolen in 2017, he says he was conscious of personal security and so his practice was to delete messages.
But concedes: "I wish I had kept them."
Who is Jeremy Miles?
Jeremy Miles was appointed to his role as Wales' education minister in May 2021.
Before that, Miles was the Welsh government's counsel general - or officer in charge of laws in Wales - and minister for European integration as well as being tasked with Covid recovery.
He is currently competing head-to-head with Wales' Economy Minister Vaughan Gething to be Welsh Labour's next leader - and therefore become Wales' next first minister.
We're back after lunch...
We hope you enjoyed your sandwiches and we're back underway after lunch - with Wales' Education Minister Jeremy Miles at the stand
Just as a quck reminder to what the UK Covid-19 Inquiry is - it was launched by Boris Johnson, the UK's prime minister throughout Covid, to look into decision-making and handling of the pandemic in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Inquiries respond to "public concern" about events and are established and funded by government - led by an independent chair.
In this case former judge and crossbench peer Baroness Hallett is in the chair.
Inquiries can demand evidence and compel witnesses to attend. No-one is found guilty or innocent, but conclusions are published. The government is not obliged to accept any recommendations.
The Covid inquiry began on 28 June 2022 and is in the final week of hearing evidence in Wales before heading to Northern Ireland.
There is no specific timescale for how long the inquiry will last but Lady Hallett does not expect the public hearings to run beyond summer 2026.
'My WhatsApp evidence wasn't misleading'
While we're on WhatsApps... Rebecca Evans' statement to the Covid inquiry last November said she only used WhatsApp informally during the pandemic - like to congratulate a colleague on their performance at a press conference.
But in a follow-up statement a month later, she amended her use of WhatsApp and messaging.
The inquiry is shown an exchange of WhatsApps from the counsel representing bereaved families whole lost loved ones to Covid.
One message asks about rules about outdoor concerts while another in October 2020 in an exchange with Vaughan Gething about Senedd business.
Evans denies being “wrong and misleading” in her first statement, telling the inquiry: “I’ve provided the inquiry with extensive WhatsApp and text messages.
"What you’re seeing here [the exchange with Mr Gething] is absolutely nothing to do with the Covid inquiry. It relates to the legislature and I think to votes at 16 and 17 and nothing to do with Covid 19. It’s a discussion, it says it’s a matter for the legislature."