Transcript: The lowdown on being disabled in Japan

This is a full transcript of The lowdown on being disabled in Japan as first presented by Beth Rose on 26 August 2021.

BETH -Hi. You're listening to BBC Ouch with me, Beth Rose. The Tokyo 2020 Paralympics are underway, and for the next half hour we're going to dip our toes into what it's like to live in Japan if you're disabled. From job quotas and accessible houses, through to electric toilets and futuristic escalators for wheelchair users, we've got plenty of detail to put you on the inside track.

If you like what you hear or are curious to know more from others, why don't you talk about it online, using the hashtag, #bbcouch. To start with I got our two contributors to introduce themselves. I'll be back after this.

[Music]

JOSH -My name is Josh. I'm originally from Canada. I've been living in Japan for about 14 years now, and I became a Japanese citizen in 2016.

BETH -And you're disabled as well?

JOSH -That's correct. I have cerebral palsy, and I use a power wheelchair to get around.

BETH -And Mizuki, how about you?

MIZUKI -My name is Mizuki Hsu, I live in Tokyo, Japan. I am a community inclusion adviser and inclusion project manager at Google. I support underrepresented groups for people with disabilities, women, LGBTQ+ and different races and ethnicities in Google. And I'm also a wheelchair user and I'm also a mother of two kids.

BETH -So very busy, essentially?

MIZUKI -Yes. [Laughs]

BETH -Now, I know it's a really big question, but what is the general perception of disability in Japan?

MIZUKI -I think the perception in Japan, 76% of population has some kind of disability according to the Japanese Government white paper released last year, but this is my personal view, I see more people with disabilities in the community in Tokyo and other cities, compared with the countryside of Japan, but I feel like inclusion of people with disability, there's still a long way to go. There's still a lack of accessibility at school and the workplace and public areas, and less opportunity for people with disabilities to participate in those social activities and engage with other people. And there's still strong stigma around people with disabilities. How about you, Josh?

JOSH -Well, I would definitely agree with that. I think we're at sort of a turning point. When I first came to Japan for a vacation back in 2000 I didn't see anybody else in a wheelchair, I was the only person using the wheelchair space on the train, etc. But now sometimes I get on the train and I have to wait for the next train because the wheelchair is already full, and I think that really speaks to the changes in the infrastructure and improvements to accessibility that way. And so I think that because of those changes people with disabilities are having the opportunity to get out more, and because of that I think that it's becoming more of a talking point, especially with the Olympics and Paralympics. So things are getting better I feel.

BETH -I mean, you talk about the accessibility, and by default, the inaccessibility. What sort of challenges might you face in Tokyo? Josh?

JOSH -One thing that Japan does really, really well is getting around. So, for example, the trains and the buses in large centres like Tokyo or Osaka or Kyoto are very, very accessible. I hear that a lot from people who are visiting here, that they had such an easy time to get around. Some of the challenges definitely are related to more the private sector. So, for example, restaurants, small stores, a lot of them tend to be less accessible than you'd find maybe in Europe or in North America.

BETH -I know Tokyo is obviously a massive city in terms of buildings and people. And is it in part because the buildings are built up skywards? So in essence you have lots of different levels and maybe lots of stairs?

JOSH -A lot of the restaurants and stores, they're just tenants in the building so they don't have the opportunity to make the accessibility changes they might want to make. So that's another challenge I think.

BETH -How about you, Mizuki? How do you find sort of getting out and about, socialising, getting to different areas of the city?

MIZUKI -Yeah, I totally agree with Josh. And then there are still many old buildings, and even if the inside of the building is accessible there is sometimes like a big step or some stairs at the entrance so that we can't really go inside. But it has been changing, and then when I usually look for restaurants or bars I notice more those websites how they are sorting like an option of wheelchair accessible. So that I can click and then I can sort which restaurants or bars are more accessible for wheelchair users. Also, Google Maps have a feature for wheelchair accessibility so that you can look for the more accessible entrance, that there are accessible toilets available. So I will use those functions as well as like a Google Maps street view, just to make sure the entrance is really, really accessible.

Sometimes the information about the stores or restaurants is not really accurate sometimes so I will make sure that it's really accessible. So there's still a long way to go but I will say the big cities are doing better and better.

BETH -What about things like accessible toilets and just things that just make life easy?

MIZUKI -The wheelchair accessible toilet in Japan, we call it a multipurpose toilet. So they're not only for wheelchair users, but people with small kids; anyone can use the toilet. So my experience is a lot of people use that space, so when I really need a space somebody's using it. So I feel it's not really accessible. Usually the shopping mall or like a station, they have only one accessible toilet.

BETH -And Josh, is that a similar experience for you? Can it sometimes be a bit difficult?

JOSH -It can be, yeah, a bit more difficult if this is the only one and it can be used by somebody else and you may need to wait, although compared to when I was growing up in North America it's almost like heaven here I'd say. In Canada anyway, I can't speak for other countries, you'd have your men's washroom and women's washroom and at the back there'd sort of be a slightly larger stall available.

You know, that's already limiting but, for example, when I was younger I'd often go to the mall or something like that with my mother and she'd have to come with me into the men's toilet or I'd have to go with her into the women's toilet, which sort of became annoying to go out because we'd have to think about those kind of things and maybe I wouldn't drink as much as I should because of that, whereas here in Japan they have a separate toilet available so it's easier if the person helping you, you know, is of a different sex or you just want some extra privacy then it can be very useful.

BETH -So, my producer, Damon, keeps emailing me the same question saying, "Electric toilets?" So our perception in the UK is that a lot of Japanese people have these electronic toilets that might be similar to bidets and offer those sort of services. Is that true? Josh?

JOSH -Yes, I think for the most part in people's houses they'll have, they call them a washlet here, and it would be, I guess, a bidet toilet. And so they offer functions for cleaning you with water, etc, and they often have heated seats as well. It can be very helpful for people with disabilities as well who don't have the ability to move their hands and wipe themselves.

BETH -I like the idea of the heated seat actually. There is one but I do want to quickly loop back to you actually. Mizuki, maybe you can help me with this, is you mentioned that sometimes it feels like there can be a stigma still around disability and disabled people.

MIZUKI -Yes.

BETH -Can you elaborate a bit more? Like, how do you feel when you go out and about, or how do your friends feel, if they've ever spoken about it?

MIZUKI -Yeah. So I've had a disability since I was two years old, so I pretty much grew up with my disability, so I'm very used to it, but in public some people gaze at me, like a stranger say, like how I'm pitiful. Sometimes it's still difficult at school and then I felt challenged at the employment stage to be seen by employers. Most of them see me as a person with a disability and then they put like a different separate role that's designed just for people with disabilities. It was a very challenging time in my life.

BETH -In employment, is this the quota system you're hinting at?

MIZUKI -That's right.

BETH -So how does that work?

MIZUKI -So in Japan we have a quota system for people with disabilities, and some countries have like a similar system for hiring people with disabilities. So right now in Japan we have 2.3% for private companies. I would say part is to protect working opportunities for people with disabilities, but if organisations focus only on the quota part it's very, very difficult to have a meaningful employment engagement. My personal experience is like when I was a college student I applied to more than a hundred Japanese companies. I was told by many companies that, "Oh, we're not hiring people with disabilities now," or, "Would you be interested in a position for people with disabilities?" instead of the role I applied for or something. It's very difficult.

BETH -So at the moment you've almost got two job streams. Is it sometimes that disabled people are just looked at to fill the disabled quota?

MIZUKI -My experience is that if the company or organisation is not meeting quotas they are very happy to see me and have an interview, but they have the position for people with disabilities. It's a different requirement, a different expectation, and different career path from people without disabilities. And so the career path is totally different and then the experience that I can have is very, very different. And the big part in Japan… And so we have like a disability certificate issued by government, so from the application stage a lot of companies asked me to submit a copy of the disability certificate to disclose my disability. So disability disclosure is not optional, but kind of a mass thing to do. So that was very, very uncomfortable for me.

BETH -Does that mean as well that maybe your skills won't be taken into account and so you'll be put in a lower paid or lower skilled job, just to fill that quota for the company?

MIZUKI -Yes, that's the very, very challenging part. I would say that because our requirements and then expectations and education background skillset is very different from the other jobs for people without disabilities, so the payment is lower. And then it's not permanent, but it's maybe like one or two years, and then if their performance is good they can renew.

BETH -And are the expectations of disabled people quite low when it comes to employment?

MIZUKI -Yeah. I think that still a lot of students with disabilities go to special education instead of a general education, so less opportunity to go to like higher ed while learning a different skill at school or like a university. Because of that the employers' expectation towards people with disabilities is quite different. That's my assumption.

BETH -Is that similar to you, Josh? Tell us a bit about where you work.

JOSH -Yeah. So first of all I had experience working in Canada before I came here, and one of my job opportunities was working for Blackberry, which is not exactly a big company anymore. But when I was hired at that time I offered, "Is there anything about my disability you want to know or would be an issue?" or something like that, and I was quite taken aback by the hirer's answer that, you know, "I don't think that has anything to do with your job performance and we'll support you in whatever needs to be done," whereas when I came here I was on a contract at first, and midway through my contract ended so I was looking for another job here in Japan.

And I went around to a number of places and like Mizuki I didn't tell them that I was disabled when I applied, and so when I arrived they were interested but a lot of times it sort of was quite point blank, "Sorry, our facilities aren't accessible enough." Or there'd be things like, "Nobody will be able to help you. We can't really hire you right now."

And that was before the laws came in about not discriminating against people based on their disability, so I don't know how things have changed recently. But thankfully, the place I'm working at right now, it's called Azalee Group and we take diversity quite seriously here. I've been on a regular career path and so I've been promoted, I'm now general manager for the marketing division here. So I guess you can't say that all places are like this or all places are like, but probably a lot tend to be more in the way that Mizuki described about meeting quotas etc.

I think also one other thing with the meeting quotas is it can sort of create an elite status amongst people with disabilities in demand for hiring, so you'll find a lot of people who have disabilities that don't really require a lot of assistance are finding it easier to get jobs, either whether it's through quotas or not, where somebody who has physical needs that would need somebody to help care for them, they find it extra difficult to find meaningful employment as well.

BETH -Does the employer have to foot the bill or something like that?

JOSH -In Canada anyway you could use your personal care attendants at work as well if you want to, if you needed to, whereas in Japan you can't use your local care attendants with you at the workplace, it would be the responsibility of the office to provide for your needs. So if you do need some sort of, for example, if you need help using the toilet or doing other physical type things that would mean some other staff would need to help you with that, or they would need to hire somebody specifically for that. So like that's sort of an extra burden that they don't want to take on.

BETH -It seems quite a strange rule that you can have your say chosen attendants at home who you're really familiar with, who go about with you at the weekends and evenings, and then to have completely different people during the day.

JOSH -It probably has to do with where the funding comes from etc, so the government is giving maybe tax cuts or funding for hiring people with disabilities and they expect that to be used then for helping people with disabilities on the job. Perhaps, I don't know.

MIZUKI -I think that's my understanding as well. And then my experience, I worked for three companies before Google and I thought that means I had a lot of job interviews, but it's still challenging but I can see some companies do a very, very good job on the accommodation or fair process at the interview stage. And then I was very, very surprised when I interviewed at Google and they offered a few things that were very, very different from other companies I had an interview with, like they offered me accommodation at application stage and then made sure that I could perform fully at the interview.

And then I also had a very, very fair question during the interview, and then they did not ask me about anything related to my disability. That's something very common with the other employers, other companies. So I think my current company, Google, I think they see me more like a person with ability and experience and potential, but that's something I couldn't really find in previous experiences.

BETH -And when it comes to living a good life, Josh, what is the welfare system like in Japan? And I know obviously you've experienced Canada's as well, so perhaps you can see where there are differences, both good and bad.

JOSH -Yeah, well I was very surprised first of all that as a foreigner originally when I came here, I'm a Japanese citizen now, but when I first came I was able to use the welfare system. Things like using personal care attendants. I get a certain number of hours per month I can use for having personal care attendants come and help me, as well as there's some sort of financial assistance for purchasing equipment like wheelchairs, etc. It's quite good I think, especially compared to other countries and even compared to Canada.

MIZUKI -When I was a high school student my school was located in the middle of a mountain, so my parents negotiated with the government to cover some of the cost of getting a power wheelchair. I don't have any disability on my… Like, I have strong arms, so first our request was rejected. Because of my current body situation I can push my wheelchair myself, but without my power wheelchair I cannot go up the mountain every day independently. So they understood the situation and they covered some of the costs of the power wheelchair at the time.

BETH -That sounds very strict that, you know, you were living in a mountainous area but because you had strength in your arms you were going to have to get up there.

MIZUKI -That's something I heard. So when I was pregnant I bought a power wheelchair, like a second hand used power wheelchair, but by myself, just to make sure that I don't need to push all the way to the hill and the station in the area I live, but I didn't really go to city hall to check if I can apply for the coverage, because I assumed they were going to say no because I'm not disabled, I was just pregnant.

BETH -Hmm-hmm, just pregnant. [Laughter]

BETH -Josh, I am fascinated by your story, as I'm sure many, many people are, because you were born in Canada, grew up in Canada. Tell me a bit about how you have now become a Japanese citizen.

JOSH -The very, very quick story?

BETH -The quick story, yes. [Laughs]

JOSH -So I lived out in the middle of the country near Toronto and we had a Japanese class at my local high school and at that time I wanted to get into IT and I thought it's a very competitive field so if I could speak Japanese as well that could maybe give me a leg up on the competition when I'm looking for a job. So that was sort of a very selfish reason for starting to study Japanese, but my Japanese teacher, he really loved Japanese culture and history as well, so he always made sure to teach us that. And I think maybe if that had been a very strict just grammar and vocabulary type lesson I might not have continued on with it, but he made it so interesting to learn and so because of that I decided that I wanted to visit Japan.

And so I guess when I was about 19, before going to university I came with my dad and I was really surprised at how accessible things were back then. That was back, I guess, 21 years ago now. Oh, I'm old… But it was better than I had envisioned from what I'd seen in movies and Japanese dramas etc, and I was able to get around. And so I had confidence to come back again, and every time I came back I was really, really impressed at how much more accessible Japan had become each time, and I decided that I wanted to move here in 2007.

And then in 2016 I decided that yeah, I definitely want to stay here long term, and I decided to become a Japanese citizen because I want to be involved in my community to the largest extent that I can, and that includes things like being involved in deciding things that will be the future of Japan, which will obviously be part of my future so I want to be able to vote, etc, etc, so I became a Japanese citizen.

BETH -And did you have to hand back your Canadian passport?

JOSH -Yeah, I had to give it back and I said sorry, and the Japanese government said sorry, and we said sorry one more time. That's a Canadian joke. [Laughter]

BETH -That sounds like such a big decision, but in the end I guess it isn't. But you've obviously lived… You spent a long time living in Canada, you've spent a long time living in Japan now, is there a best thing for disabled people in Japan that you really appreciate?

JOSH -I think every culture has really great things in terms of accessibility and inclusion, so there's a lot of things that I've been impressed with here. I think one of them is the dedication to improving accessibility, inclusion and diversity. I think we've done a lot with the Olympics and Paralympics, so that's one of the legacies they want to leave. And also just the changes that have been made, improvements to the bullet train, to local trains, in such a short amount of time, and I think that's something that really speaks to the culture of Japan and compared to a lot of other countries where they're constantly yeah, once we get the budget we'll improve accessibility, but Japan has really done a good job of that for infrastructure.

BETH -What sort of things have they done to the bullet train to improve it?

JOSH -Well recently it definitely has a direct impact on tourists as well as the Olympics and Paralympics. They increased the number of seats available in the trains between Tokyo and Osaka. Before there were like two spaces available but now there's, I think it's about six spaces available per train. The trains run every ten minutes. I mean, they're building out the fleet right now, but that's one thing, they've lowered the gap between the track and the train, as well as making it easier to book accessible tickets on line.

BETH -Mizuki, I have heard on the grapevine that there might be some interesting innovation which is basically escalators for wheelchairs? Is that a thing? And if it is, can you explain what it is?

MIZUKI - I believe not all escalators have the feature but some escalators have a feature that can carry up the person in a wheelchair, to be operated by the station staff. And when the button is pressed, the stairs of the escalator will slowly transform to three to four stairs to make it completely flat and then stop. The person can ride on the space and then slowly the escalator will carry the person up and down. When it reaches the point the escalator will stop very slowly and then the person can get off. I cannot do it by myself but it's really quite interesting. And I didn't know that's not available in other countries.

BETH -Well, we certainly don't have them in the UK, so in my head what I'm imagining is three of the steps have all joined together.

MIZUKI -Three to four I believe. It takes time so I don't personally like it, but if the elevator is not available I will ask the station staff to let me use the escalator and then they've got to prepare and set up everything. So I will use it sometimes.

BETH -Do they have these in Canada, Josh? And if not, what was your impression of them?

JOSH -No, they don't have them in Canada. I put a YouTube video up about them, and that was probably one of my most popular videos. I personally find them terrifying, but I think it's a piece of great engineering, and as Mizuki said, if the elevator's broken or something that's an alternative, and I think that's one thing that definitely Japan really does well. I've heard in a lot of other countries, something's under repair and maybe it's a month before it gets repaired, whereas in Japan they have a lot of backup systems and alternatives in case that happens.

BETH -So I think in the UK some wheelchair users will try and use an escalators on their wheelchair, but we don't have these special steps. So it doesn't always go down well with the staff in the shops or the stations. But one of the key areas I guess that you can't get away from anywhere is housing, and I imagine finding property in Tokyo could be difficult anyway generally because it's got such a huge population, I think it's over 13 million. How did you both find finding somewhere to live, and how easy is it to find somewhere accessible? Mizuki, if you want to go first?

MIZUKI - Okay, yeah. I have lived in Tokyo more than ten years and I have moved four times within Tokyo. And then it was quite challenging to find fully wheelchair accessible housing. Usually the design is small and many old apartments have stairs at the entrance and like no elevators sometimes. And then I know some public housing that's accessible for wheelchair users, but I personally haven't tried before. So what I usually do is go to a regular real estate office and look for an apartment where the building entrance and the communal areas are accessible, because I can go around the inside of the apartment.

So that's my minimum requirement, that's entrance and then communal areas are accessible. And I usually request an apartment very close to the station for the daily commuting to go to work. So the price is more expensive. But right now I live in an apartment which is fully wheelchair accessible. I heard the owner designed the rooms for family with three generations, like grandparents and parents and kids. The first time I can use a wheelchair inside an apartment. So it was quite difficult. But from now on I think more elderly people in wheelchairs need to find a space, so I think they will be changing them.

BETH -And is renting the most popular way to go about city living, Josh?

JOSH -I rent but I know other people who, because of the lack of accessible places available, they will buy maybe a condominium and then renovate it afterwards. And that's the only way they can really guarantee that something will be accessible for them.

BETH -And what kind of place do you live in?

JOSH -I live in an apartment building that's rather unique. The apartment building itself is accessible and all of the apartments are wheelchair accessible. So a lot of apartments in Japan traditionally have a sort of place where you take off your shoes. It's called a genkan. And traditionally what you'd do is you'd take off your shoes and you'd step up into the house or apartment. And so a lot of apartments in Japan to this day have a genkan, so you're almost always… A large amount of them anyway. So even if the building's accessible, once you actually get into the apartment you'll have a step that's maybe about five or six centimetres tall where people will take off their shoes and go in. So mine has what I would call a genkan in spirit. There's no actual step but there's a division in the floor, so part of it goes from linoleum to wood panelling because people just generally instinctively know that's where they should take off their shoes.

BETH -Ah. That sounds quite intuitive. A very simple way to acknowledge it.

JOSH -Exactly, yes.

BETH -Thank you both so much. I know it's in the middle of your working day so it's really appreciated. Take care.

MIZUKI - [speaks Japanese]

MIZUKI - Thank you, bye.

BETH -Mizuki and Josh were great to talk to, and I was really interested to hear about the employment quotas, and how a positive method, meant to get disabled people into work, hasn't quite worked in the way you might expect. I know quotas exist in European countries too and Japan's benefit system is actually quite similar to direct payments and personal budgets that we have over here in the UK. Anyway, thanks for listening. You can talk about this using the hashtag, #bbcouch. And please, do pass this podcast on to any Japanophile mates you might have. I'm going to get back to watching the Paralympics now. I mean, obviously listening to it on BBC 5 Live. Stay tuned to this feed for more Paralympic podcasts in the coming days. Speak to you soon.