Summary

  • Ex-Post Office boss Paula Vennells has denied the company's executive team, which she led, shielded the board from "dirty laundry"

  • She tells the Post Office inquiry she felt "very strongly" about the Post Office board being able to challenge her

  • Vennells has also denied that concerns from her media adviser about negative news coverage influenced her decision on whether to review five to 10 years' worth of past prosecutions

  • On Wednesday, she acknowledged evidence she gave to MPs and colleagues in one meeting about prosecutions of sub-postmasters wasn’t true

  • This week is the first time she has publicly spoken about her role in the scandal for nearly a decade - press play above to watch the session

  • Between 1999 and 2015, more than 900 sub-postmasters were prosecuted because of the faulty Horizon system

Live Reporting

Edited by Emily McGarvey, Barbara Tasch and Adam Durbin

  1. Vennells grilled about preparing answers for 2015 select committee

    Sam Hancock
    Reporting from the inquiry

    Inquiry counsel Jason Beer is sticking to questions about Fujitsu's ability to remotely access Horizon accounts in Post Office branches.

    In one exchange, Beer brings up an email from 2015 - it was sent by Paula Vennells, to ex-Post Office head of IT Lesley Sewell and ex-group communications and corporate affairs director Mark R Davies, in the lead up to her well-documented appearance before the business select committee.

    Screenshot of email sent by Paula VennellsPost Ofice Inquiry

    Vennells says she was once advised that in order to get to the truth it's better to tell someone "what it is you want to say very clearly and then ask for the information that backs that up".

    Beer suggests that's an "odd way to go about things", which prompts laughter around the room. I hear one person say "unbelievable" to the person next to them.

    Vennells keeps a straight face and says this was part of a "genuine attempt to be able to reassure" MPs, and that she believed it to be true that systems couldn't be accessed remotely. Other faces in the room are not so straight.

  2. 'Deeply regrettable' Fujitsu's Horizon access document wasn't shared - Vennells

    Beer asks what investigation was carried out by the Post Office to find the documentation that showed how Fujitsu could alter data - which he says one witness described as "the Wild West". He adds his team had been able to find evidence that shows the extent to which Fujitsu could amend transactions.

    "I should have seen those documents, I didn't know they existed," replies Vennells.

    "So it wasn't that the documentation wasn't available, it is that it would be costly to find it?" queries Beer.

    "No no, it would be costly to recreate it," replies Vennells. She says that the existing documentation at the time had not been updated, which means that finding the latest version would be difficult.

    Beer clarifies that he is talking about a different thing - he says he is talking about documents from Fujitsu, some of which were passed to the Post Office, saying they had a team with privileged rights that allowed them access to insert or amend transactions.

    "That information wasn't shared. Deeply regrettably," Vennells says.

  3. 'Yes, exactly' - Vennells acknowledges Fujitsu could access postmasters' accounts

    Vennells says that she didn't understand until after she left the Post Office that Horizon's "balancing transaction tool could be used partially and without permission of the sub-postmasters to make interventions in the system".

    She gives an example, such as to "reboot the stock unit" had it crashed. "I don't think I ever understood they could be used in terms of remote access in the way I think they were, but I didn't know that at the time until I left the organisation," she adds.

    Would you agree what Deloitte clearly states that Fujitsu could make searches and changes to balancing accounts without approval of sub-postmaster? she is asked by Jason Beer KC.

    "Yes that's exactly what it says," she answers, pointing to what the Deloitte report says.

  4. Deloittle's Horizon document had 'significant limitations'

    Section of a Deloitte report, it reads: Limitations and Assumptions Our findings and conclusions are presented in the context of the following limitations: As a desktop exercise we have not validated whether Horizon has been implemented or operated as described in the documentation reviewed. Our work was limited by significant gaps existing in the information available, relating to both the granularity of information and the existence of the Horizon Features over the entire timeline of operation of Horizon. The effect of which is that there are in gaps within what we are able to comment upon over this timeline. Our findings below are written in the context of the information available, which relates to the current system. An event occurred in 2010 which required the use of the exceptional Balancing Transaction process in Horizon to correct a Sub-postmasters position from a technical issue. Information has not been provided on the circumstances that lead to this system issue and how the issue was identified. It is assumed that verbal assertions received from Fujitsu that this was the only time this process has been used hold true. We have not had direct contact with any third parties other than named contacts you have provided to us; We have not validated or commented on the quality of the documentation supplied to us.Post Office Inquiry

    The inquiry returns from a brief break to look at a briefing document compiled for the Post Office board by consulting firm Deloitte looking into the Horizon

    Jason Beer KC highlights section of the report which explicitly states their work on behalf of the Post Office should not be considered a full audit, as they had not tested Horizon themselves.

    He also brings up the "limitations" under which Deloitte produced the report, which stresses the firm had "not validated" whether Horizon worked as described in Post Office documents give to them.

    Vennells agrees with the barrister's assertion that this was a "significant limitation" to the briefing.

    She says that evidence showed "fix upon fix had been applied" to Horizon and "documentation had not been kept", so Deloitte discovered it was going to be difficult to find the paperwork that confirmed it.

  5. Deloitte report did not show Horizon problems - Vennells

    Beer shifts his focus to a board briefing prepared by Deloitte. The 2014 report addressed whether Horizon was robust and fit for purpose. Beer also pulls up Vennells’ witness statement.

    In her witness statement Vennells acknowledges that the report had "raised serious concerns" and there were some caveats about Horizon. She says she spoke to former Post Office head of IT Lesley Sewell, who had assured her that more background documents could provide assurances in respect to the caveats. There is no documentation of this conversation, Beer notes.

    Vennells says she recalls being concerned about the report but “others seemed less concerned about it”, claiming that "Deloitte had not found anything to show that the Horizon system was not working as it should", but it had flagged issues that needed to be looked into. She says she remembers speaking to Sewell twice about this.

  6. Inquiry chair says Vennells is 'putting gloss' on evidence

    Sir Wynn speaking in the inquiryPost Office Inquiry

    Vennells is being pressed on what she knew about the ability of Fujitsu to remotely access Horizon accounts.

    In her witness statement, Vennells confirms that in 2011, she received a report by auditing firm EY which looked into "privileged access" and elements of the system which "increased the risk of unauthorised/inappropriate access" which could lead to "erroneous transactions".

    Beer asks if by 2011 she accepted Fujitsu could remotely access the accounts of sub-postmasters.

    Vennells says she didn't "understand that degree of detail" in the report, adding she had recently been promoted and had not been involved in this type of systems audit before.

    Inquiry chair Sir Wyn interjects to ask Vennells if the "gloss you are putting on it" is that she couldn't understand the report because of a lack of technical knowledge.

    Vennells says she did not mean to put a gloss on it, adding she regrets "that I didn't understand it at the time".

  7. Audible groans as Vennells uses 'I can't recall' defence

    Sam Hancock
    Reporting from the inquiry

    We've had quite a few instances of "I can't recall" since we resumed from lunch - more than this morning, I'd say.

    There were murmurs around the room after the most recent one, over a 2011 email where Paula Vennells told former Royal Mail chair Donald Brydon that "each time any cases [against former sub-postmasters] have gone to court, POL [Post Office Limited]'s position has been upheld. And from memory, in at least two cases fraud was proven with subsequent imprisonment".

    Jason Beer, counsel to the inquiry, asks where Vennells got that information, to which she says it could've only come from the Post Office's legal team. But, asked for names and specifics, she struggles to remember.

    Vennells does, however, say that she'd have only given that response had it been a fact she believed to be true.

    The audible groans suggest some people in the room don't necessarily believe that's true.

  8. 'Did you do anything to join the dots between complaints?'

    Beer asks Vennells if she repeatedly received letters from sub-postmasters and people on behalf of sub-postmasters raising complaints or concerns about Horizon.

    "Yes, I would," replies Vennells.

    "Did you see a pattern between them?" he asks.

    "I saw the theme of Horizon coming up, yes," she replies.

    Beer presses she did anything to join the dots between them.

    Vennells says the dots were being joined in the investigative work in the complaints and mediation scheme, adding that she believes each case was looked at in detail.

    She says that she regrets that none of the issues were exposed in those investigations.

  9. Vennells shown McCormack emails accusing PO of 'heads in the sand'

    Email shown to the inquiry from Tim McCormack, it reads: "A typical head in the sand reply from the team you have placed too much trust in. Let me be very clear here. Once the police investigation is completed it is HIGHLY likely, indeed probable, that members of your staff will be sent to prison. A custodial sentence is mandatory for this offence. Your role in this will not escape attention. This is Seema Misra's phone number GRO Call her and apologise and ensure her suffering is ended as soon as possible. I do wonder what kind of God you worship. Tim McCormack"Post Office Inquiry

    Vennells is shown another series of emails from Tim McCormack in 2016, the first of which accuses the Post Office of having its head in the sand and warns criminal prosecutions of her staff are likely.

    Beer asks what was done about it and Vennells says she does not recall.

    Another McCormack message is highlighted, in which the campaigner offers to present more details of known Horizon errors and instructing her to call wrongfully convicted sub-postmistress Seema Misra to apologise.

    McCormack's emails appear to be angry in tone - he calls Vennells team a "complete bunch of idiots" and questions "what kind of God you worship".

    Asked if this was when she refused to engage further with McCormack, Vennells apologises for not being able to remember and thinks someone else had taken on responsibility for replying.

  10. Did you think sub-postmaster was a 'bluffer?' Vennells asked

    Vennells is shown an email sent to her by former sub-postmaster Tim McCormack in 2015, warning that he had "clear and unquestionable evidence of an intermittent bug in Horizon that can and does cause thousands of pounds in losses to sub-postmasters".

    Vennells says she can't recall what she did after receiving this, which is met by gasps in the room.

    The ex-Post Office boss goes on to say that she sent an email to her team saying that he must be taken professionally, and "in hindsight I think he was right and I regret that the matters he was raising took too long to address".

    Beer then shows an email from Vennells' PA sending McCormack’s email to Angela Van Den Bogerd, the senior director in the Post Office, which was then forwarded to Rodric Williams, the internal lawyer, saying they should ask for more information and write to him in the same terms that others had been written to.

    Williams in the email says he thinks McCormack is a “bluffer”. Beer asks Vennells if she shares his view.

    “No,” she says. “I took his challenges seriously.”

  11. Vennells regrets referring to postmasters' complaints as 'noise'

    Now Vennells is being shown a 2015 email she sent to other senior Post Office executives in which she refers to not wanting "any additional noise or references to Horizon".

    Beer focuses in on this phrase and asks if it reflected the mindset at the top of the organisation about complaints from sub-postmasters.

    Vennells apologises for that wording, saying she is "not very happy" with it and adding it "reflects a wrong understanding" of the situation.

    She says the phrase was "unwise" and "shouldn't have been used by me and other people".

  12. 'Martin Griffiths' evidence brought tears to my eyes'

    Sam Hancock
    Reporting from the inquiry

    Harjinder Butoy

    Here's a bit more from my interview with former sub-postmaster Harjinder Butoy - the first part is here.

    I ask Butoy how he felt during the evidence earlier about fellow sub-postmaster Martin Griffiths' suicide. If you go back and read some of my earlier posts, you'll get more detail on this - including Paula Vennells' handling of Griffiths' death.

    "I won't lie to you, it brought tears to my eyes," Butoy tells me.

    He also says that in his mind, rather than Griffiths taking his own life, "the Post Office killed him".

    At the time of his death, Griffiths was being pursued for a supposed shortfall amounting to £100,000 at his Post Office branch in Cheshire. He had written to the Post Office that July about a £39,000 shortfall at his branch between February 2012 and May 2013. He was also being held culpable for losses from an armed robbery at his branch in May of that year.

    Butoy, whose conviction was overturned in 2021, says he's finally started receiving his compensation "in drips and drabs". He adds:

    I've not been to the inquiry at all but I wanted to come here to watch her [Vennells] because, regardless of whether she says she knew anything, she was the highest up and she's the one who should be punished."

  13. Vennells says she wasn't kept informed about number of complaints

    Beer now turns to the case of Harjinder Butoy, a sub-postmaster who was convicted of 10 counts of theft through false accounting totalling over £200,000. He was eventually sentenced to three years in prison - which left him bankrupt and ruined his reputation.

    Beer shows Vennells a letter from an MP asserting that the accounting errors in this case were caused by Horizon, and asks if she viewed this case differently because it was an MP who had written to her, rather than a sub-postmaster.

    "I think it would have been the same," says Vennells, adding that she wouldn't have seen this as any different from a personal point of view.

    She says she's unsure whether she would have seen the letter because she "worked very long days" and only sometimes saw letters as they came in.

    She says she wasn't kept informed about how many complaints sub-postmasters were sending about Horizon, adding that "this could have been done much better".

  14. Vennells concerned van den Bogerd would 'jump to defend Horizon'

    Email shown to the inquiry, it reads: "Thanks Kevin. Just watch that Angela doesn't jump to any defence, or even worse assume she knows the answer (she did say to me the woman's daughter had caused the problem). If we have been negligent in following through, we should think about how to manage it. It also begs the question re how the business is now being run? Paula Paula Vennells Chief Executive Post Office Ltd"Post Office Inquiry

    Beer returns to the death of Martin Griffiths, a former sub-postmaster who attempted to take his own life in 2013 and died in hospital a few weeks later. Griffiths had been pursued for a supposed shortfall amounting to £100,000 at his Cheshire post office.

    The barrister shows Vennells an email she sent to Post Office executive Kevin Gilliland in 2014, warning him to ensure senior Post Office lawyer Angela van den Bogerd did not "jump to any defence" of Horizon.

    Beer asks why she wrote this. Vennells says it was the "right question to ask if I had a concern" over Horizon.

    Beer immediately interjects to ask if she did have a concern and Vennells replies van den Bogerd had worked for the Post office for some time.

    Vennells goes on to say she wanted to avoid people getting "drawn in" to this firm view and becoming complacent.

  15. Vennells surrounded by people who told her 'all is well' - sub-postmaster

    Beer brings up an email sent to Vennells from former sub-postmaster Tim McCormack.

    McCormack had questioned how much Vennells, and those reporting to her, understood Horizon processes, saying she was surrounded by people who told her “all is well”.

    Vennells says she can't remember how she responded to the email, adding that she’s sorry because McCormack’s comments rang true in hindsight.

    She says his emails became more “extreme” - or as Beer puts it, “exasperated” - in their tone and she understands why this was the case. She claims in every case, issues raised by him were picked up.

    Beer asks if the issues were properly investigated. Vennells refers to a 2016 investigation and says she was told that an explanation was found for the issues he had brought up.

  16. Vennells challenged on belief postmasters must 'make good' all shortfalls

    Handwritten letter to Paula Vennells from 2013Post Office Inquiry

    We are back after the break and the inquiry is now being shown a 2013 letter written to Vennells by a sub-postmaster whose Horizon system was showing shortfalls.

    The inquiry's lawyer Jason Beer KC is pushing her over how sub-postmasters were being routinely held liable for shortfalls, even where they were saying there must be problems with their computer system.

    Vennells says her understanding of the contract with branch managers at the time was that any shortfalls must be "made good".

    Beer points out the contract did not say explicitly say that, so asks Vennells why she believed that to be the case. Vennells says she "can't recall" why she thought that.

    The lawyer asks what the point of any investigation would be if sub-postmasters had to repay shortfalls anyway. Vennells says that it would be "irresponsible" not to investigate.

  17. Inquiry resumes

    People walking into the inquiryPost Office Inquiry

    The inquiry is back from lunch.

    You can watch it live by pressing the large Play button at the top of this page.

    We'll bring you the latest quotes and clips from Pauls Vennells, so stay with us.

  18. 'I don't believe anything that comes out of her mouth' - former sub-postmaster

    Sam Hancock
    Reporting from the inquiry

    Everyone's enjoying a cup of tea and biscuit here - everyone, that is, except us journalists who are desperately trying to talk to the sub-postmasters and postmistresses here to watch Paula Vennells give evidence.

    I just caught up with Harjinder Butoy, who was wrongfully convicted of stealing £208,000 and served an 18-month term, prompting his Nottinghamshire Post Office branch to be shut down.

    He says he's struggling to believe "anything that comes out of her [Vennells'] mouth" and certainly doesn't believe the tears we've seen today.

    "All that emotional crying, why put a show on now? We're not interested," he tells me, saying Vennells "needs to just sit there and tell the truth".

    A key part of today's evidence was when chair of the inquiry Sir Wyn Williams intervened to press Vennells on her claim that she didn't know the Post Office privately prosecuted sub-postmasters until years after she joined. "Come on, she's so high up - how the hell is she not meant to know anything?" Butoy asks.

    He jokes that if that's genuinely the case, he feels he's qualified to be a CEO himself. "It's unbelievable," he says.

  19. Here's what we heard at the inquiry this morning

    We'll return to the inquiry soon, when it reconvenes at 14:15 BST.

    The morning we've been hearing from Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office, who has been giving evidence at the public inquiry into the Horizon IT scandal.

    This is the first time Vennells has spoken publicly about what happened in almost a decade. Here are the key lines from this morning:

    • The ex-Post Office boss began the hearing with an apology, which was met with a palpable silence, saying that she was "sorry" for "all the sub-postmasters and their families who have suffered as a result of all that the inquiry has been looking into for so long"
    • Vennells said she was "too trusting" after Inquiry Counsel Jason Beer pressed her over several assurances in her witness statements that she had never been warned about various bugs and issues
    • Texts between ex-Royal Mail Chief Moya Greene and Vennells were shown to the inquiry, in which Greene said she can no longer support Vennells. Greene text her "I think you knew", referring to issues with Horizon and the prosecution of sub-posmasters
    • When Beer went through a list of sub-postmasters and postmistresses who had been acquitted after being accused of stealing money from the Post Office, Vennells broke down into tears
    • Sir Wyn Williams intervened in the inquiry to press Vennells on her claim that she didn't know the Post Office was carrying out private prosecutions and many people giving evidence have said that, but he didn't understand how it can be true
    • Vennells said she didn’t see the Clarke advice until after she left the post office. It was a bombshell piece of legal advice from barrister Simon Clarke, warning the Post Office in 2013 about problems with past prosecutions

    Vennell's evidence continues when the inquiry resumes shortly. Stay with us for the key moments and analysis.

    Watch: Ex-Post Office boss cries while giving evidence

  20. Vennells evidence 'feels like a cover up again', says jailed sub-postmistress

    Seema Misra outside the inquiryPA Media

    Seema Misra is closely following the inquiry in central London

    Seema Misra - a former sub-postmistress who was wrongly jailed for 15 months in 2010 while pregnant - is attending the inquiry today to listen to Vennells's evidence.

    Speaking to BBC Radio 4's World At One programme, she says she will attend all three days of the "really important" questioning - but accuses the former CEO of "complete denial so far".

    Misra says the opening hours of today's evidence "feels like a cover up again", adding "whatever the documents are saying and whatever she is saying, it doesn't go hand in hand".

    Asked what she hopes to see in the coming hours and days, she says Vennells should "just tell the truth".

    Misra has turned down the government's offer of £600,000 compensation, describing it as "an insult".