Committee convener and SNP MSP James Dornan says the meeting he and Ross Greer had with teachers tied in almost exactly around the criticism of the SQA.

Mr Dornan says he does not agree with Liz Smith that the CfE is failing and she intervenes to says it is the delivery that is failing.

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The committee convener also said that the CfE has not reached the level of maturity he would have hoped for.

Mr Swinney says he is very focused on learning from the OECD report.

He says the national improvement framework has got a real grip of the education system and it has got it focused on improving performance.

That concludes the evidence session on education.

Labour MSP Johann Lamont asks about disproportionate apprenticeships and if the government should be looking across all programmes.

Mr Swinney says it is a fair comment and the role of modern apprenticeships is to provide more opportunity for young people.

Labour MSP Johann Lamont says she is disappointed with the education secretary's reaction to a balanced report with the views of the committee. 

Ms Lamont asks Mr Swinney why he thinks so many witnesses have brought forward very serious concerns to the committee.

The Labour MSP asks if the education secretary recognises that there are very serious concerns.

Mr Swinney says his point is that there are conflicting views which have not been heard. 

The education secretary says he listens carefully to the teaching profession across the country.

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Green MSP Ross Greer asks why there is no direct learner representation on the CfE management board

Mr Swinney says: "That is a pretty fair comment," and goes on to says "we will address that".

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Labour MSP Daniel Johnson says there has been quite a precipitous drop in those taking French and German and is breadth important.

Mr Swinney says: "Breadth is fundamental."

The education secretary says there are challenges on modern langauges and STEM subjects.

He says the government is trying to boost participation in these subjects.

Labour MSP Daniel Johnson asks about how easy it is to deliver qualifications.

Mr Swinney says on the issues around the certification and authority of qualifications that is the exclusive responsibility of the SQA.

The education secretary says: "Nobody, not even the minister, can interfere in that process."

Labour MSP Daniel Johnson asks how Mr Swinney sees the responsibilities of himself, the curriculum for excellence board and other stakeholders.

Mr Swinney says the SQA has a clear responsibility as an awards agency and Education Scotland has the responsibility for inspections.

The education secretary says the Curriculum for Excellence management board was set up to oversee the implementation of the Curriculum for Excellence over a number of years.

Mr Swinney says the Curriculum for Excellence board feeds back to him, and the ultimate responsibility is his as education secretary. 

Mr Swinney says he expects the highest standards of all public bodies in education.

He says he expects the SQA and Education Scotland to take cognisance of feedback. 

Mr Swinney says he wants to have an "empowered teaching profession."

The education secretary says he gets a lot of correspondence from teachers and some of that is critical.

He says he wants to give greater scope and leadership into the profession. 

"Yes there are challenging conversations," he says, "because there are different points of view."

He says the Curriculum for Excellence is designed to create and empowered profession. 

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Scotland's schools recorded their worst ever performance in an international survey of pupils published last December.

Scotland's scores for maths, reading and science all declined in the latest set of Programme for International Student Assessment (Pisa) figures.

It was the first time since the tests began in 2000 that all three subject areas were classed as "average", with none "above average".

Education Secretary John Swinney said the results made uncomfortable reading.

He said they showed that "radical reform" was needed if Scotland's education system was to become world-class again.

• Testing times for Scottish education
• Scotland 'not a star pupil'
• Look back on John Swinney's statement on the Pisa scores on Holyrood Live
• Pisa tests: UK lags behind in global school rankings

Image source, Thinkstock

Achievement in Scottish schools is above international averages - but the gap is narrowing,  a review found in 2015., external

Particular concerns were raised about maths where performance has fallen from high to average over the past decade.

The review of the  Curriculum for Excellence (CfE), external  was undertaken by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD).

The international experts said CfE was at a "watershed moment" and changes could deliver a world class system.

Mr Swinney says Mr Scott has been "waving a document at him" relating to benchmarks.

"While we can wave big documents around, only parts of them are relevant to the education system at a particular time," he says.

Mr Scott says the committee found legitimate areas of concern about the C of E's management board.

Mr Swinney says the management board has to bring together the disparate views of many organisations and not all will be comfortable with everything.

Mr Scott says the management board did not stop the mounting guidance being sent to schools.

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The education secretary says he has removed some  of the guidance and he says the clarity for the teaching profession must be provided.

However he says empowerment is one of the key objectives of the CfE.

Mr Scott says in 2015 the OECD questioned the comprehensibility of the CfE.

The minister and the Lib Dem MSP share a smile over whether Mr Scott brandished or waved a benchmarks document in the chamber 

Li Dem MSP Tavish Scott says a report in The Times states that Mr Swinney views the committee's paper as "unbalanced", he asks if this report is accurate.

Mr Swinney says "yes, that is the word I have used"

Mr Scott asks if the area of the committee's paper that Mr Swinney finds "unbalanced" is the section relating to the SQA and Education Scotland.

Mr Swinney says "yes" that is the section he is referring to. 

Mr Swinney says Curriculum for Excellence was not designed to be a curriculum that was delivered uniformly.

The educations secretary says there is going to be variation and difference. 

Ms Smith says she understands there will be debate and difficult decisions but if there is a "wealth of teachers" concerned with decisions what do they do about that. 

"The lines of responsibility are blurred," she says