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Tory MSP Liz Smith says the committee found it incredibly difficult to get the education agencies to say who makes decisions and who is responsible.

Ms Smith says the basic problem around the CfE is not knowing who is responsible for it.

Mr Swinney says Scottish education is collaborative .

The education secretary details the many organisations must be around the table.

He says ultimately he carries responsibility of the CfE.

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Mr Swinney says he takes a fundamentally different view to the one taken by Liz Smith.

The education secretary says there has been a build up of guidance over a number of years, as requested by the education system.

He says the education system has worked collaboratively in this.

Mr Swinney says he has required very clear and definitive guidance to be distributed.

He brandishes the guidance and says teachers have told him that the guidance has helped them deliver C for E.

The education secretary says he will issue benchmarks beyond literacy and numeracy before the end of March to ensure there is absolute clarity for teachers.

Ms Smith says the committee has heard during private and public evidence sessions that the delivery of the Curriculum for Excellence has "fundamental problems".

The Tory MSP asks if Mr Swinney would accept this.

Mr Swinney says "no" and to allow him to elaborate he would have to understand how Curriculum for Excellence is being criticised. 

Tory MSP Liz Smith says Mr Swinney feels that evidence received by the committee has been "biased". 

Mr Swinney says at no stage has he used the word "bias."

Ms Smith says the word was reported in the press. 

The education secretary says it is not a word he wants associated with him.

Possible issues to explore: 

• The performance of the CfE Management board and the potential for changes to governance of CfE going forward 
• The potential culture of conformity in education 
• The appropriateness or otherwise of more specific national guidance or direction about the structure of the Senior Phase. 

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• Possible constraints on curricular structures, (such as notional 160 hour course requirement) whether the implications of these should be articulated more clearly at a national level. 
• Effects of a 3 year Senior Phase on the minority of young people who leave at the end of S4. • How teacher availability constrains the potential to realise the aims of Curriculum for Excellence. 
• Whether and how to establish the degree to which pupils are really able to exercise ‘personalisation’ and ‘choice’ in the Senior Phase. 
• The relatively low proportion of Scottish medical degree students coming through the Scottish qualification system and any structural reasons for this.  

Greens MSP Ross Greer asks if the education secretary believes that it is right for schools not to teach LGBTI if they have a moral issue with it.

Mr Swinney says he believes it is important that children are well equipped and education should enable that to be the case. 

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Conservative MSP Ross Thomson raise the issue of a suicide of a young boy of 14 years old and urges caution as the reasons are not known.

Mr Thomson says: "It is being reported that it is because he recently came out as gay and had had severe bullying at School."

He asks personally as someone who went through the same bullying for just being what he was, what can be done to address the issue.

Mr Swinney says he is not in a position to comment on that other than to express his deepest sympathy to the family.

Education secretary says: "Bullying is reprehensible in whatever form it takes place."

Mr Swinney says the issues raised by the TIE campaign are being looked at very carefully.

He says there is a statutory requirement for schools to follow the government's guidance on bullying.

Anyone affected by this story or the issues raised can call the NSPCC Childline helpline below.

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Lib Dem MSP Tavish Scott says evidence shows faith schools are not equipping young people.

Mr Scott also asks if there is a need for guidance teachers to possess more skills. 

Mr Swinney says it may be difficult to recruit individuals that pass the matrix of education and social work.

The education secretary says what is possible is that a guidance teacher can link to other external professionals. 

"Guidance teachers need to be well connected to make that happen," he says.  

SNP MSP Gillian Martin says there seems to be variance in the quality of guidance teachers.

Ms Martin asks if there is something that could be done at the teacher training level, like a specific course being mandatory to become a guidance teacher.

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Education Secretary John Swinney says there must be space and capacity for the professional development of teachers.

Ms Martin says PSN training needs to be given a boost or an overhaul.

Mr Swinney says "he is really quite open to this question".

Ms Martin says Jordan Daly from the TIE campaign told the committee that the obvious elephant in the room was faith schools in terms of LGBTI education.

Mr Swinney says this "is an issue we need to be mindful off" and he says "we have to work constructively and collaboratively with faith schools".

SNP MSP Colin Beattie asks if there is a danger that teachers are being expected to deliver too many subjects.

"It's a big ask," he says.

Mr Swinney says there are very interesting projects across the country where schools are inviting external organisations to deliver lessons which are facilitated by the teacher.

The education secretary says health and wellbeing is identified as something that is the responsibility of all in the school. 

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SNP MSP Colin Beattie says the government says it is not going to be prescriptive to schools, but should some subjects be mandatory.

Mr Swinney says literacy, numeracy and health and well being are being prioritised by HM Inspectorate of Education.

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Mr Swinney says he cannot see how you can make young people successful learners and confident individuals without appropriate health and wellbeing education.

The education secretary says "we rely in the teaching profession" to deliver the guidance provided.

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Mr Swinney says he has agreed for the Equal Opportunities Committee to look at the provision of LGBTI education.

The education secretary says the issues Mr Greer raises are very important and the guidance must be effective in that respect.

He says the approach the government takes is to ensure the guidance works and then inspections follow it up.

Mr Greer says a flexible approach is resulting in inconsistencies in a vital area for pupils.

He asks how PSE could be made more valued in schools.

Greens MSP Ross Greer asks if every school delivers sex and relationship education which meets every pupil's needs.

Mr Swinney says it is "a very difficult question for me to answer with 2,500 schools in the country".

The education secretary says what he can say is that the guidance is provided to make sure it is the case and inspectors will review this.

Mr Greer says the evidence that has been heard by committee seems to suggest it is not happening.

Mr Swinney says the government places great importance on this question and health and wellbeing is a priority area.

Possible issues to explore

• The extent that PSE adequately covers topics such as Sex and Relationship Education and mental health. Which if any parts of the curriculum of PSE should be mandatory. 
• Consistency of delivery of PSE and in particular sex and relationships education across all schools. 
• The inclusivity of PSE and schools’ duties to deliver PSE that fulfils duties under the Equalities Act 2010. 
• Co-production of PSE  

Read more of the SPICe briefing here., external

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Committee convener James Dornan moves on to Personal and Social Education. 

Ms Lamont asks if Mr Swinney does not accept the evidence that the committee has heard claiming "things are very tough" in mainstreaming. 

Mr Swinney says he takes the issues seriously and he can see the challenges and strains but within the context of financial constraint the performance of children with additional support needs continues to improve.

"This is a welcome trend," says the education secretary.