Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain, on behalf of Peter Jolly's Circus and the European Circus Association says there is a gentleman she is aware of that travels to county shows with camels and pigs,

Ms Brown says during the show people can play camel polo and does pig racing and camel racing.

She asks why this is different to what the circuses do.

"How can you justify" that and not circuses? She asks.

"Is it just the word circus that we have problems with?" She says.

Image source, bbc

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says they do not scold or hit their animals but use praise and reward instead.

Mr Beckwith says they film all their training and it is available to view on their Facebook page, external.

SNP MSP Emma Harper says big cats are carnivores and asks if the witnesses think they are domesticated.

Ms Harper says she has seen video evidence that the lions seem perturbed during training.

Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain chairman Martin Burton asks when the video evidence was filmed and adds "things have changed".

Mr Burton says people used to use a wooden chair to train a lion and dress up animals but they used to put children up chimneys.

He says: "We have moved on and I'm afraid so many people don't understand that."

Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain chairman Martin Burton says most of the acts are self employed and, as a circus director, he is not employing them.

Mr Burton says that the reason for this is that he cannot tell a trapeze artist how to perform so he would book them and they would be responsible for their own act and equipment.

He says that the same goes for animal trainers and says the only power he has is to dismiss that person if it turns out that they are mistreating animals.

SNP MSP Angus MacDonald asks about the level of fine being £5000 and if this is enough.

Mr Burton says if he was fined £5000 a couple of times then it would close him down.

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says there are four directors in his company and it is not very clear who would be responsible in the Bill.

SNP MSP Angus Macdonald says in the legislation both individuals and the organisations could be criminally responsible under the proposals of the Bill.

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain says that is the right thing and that if someone beats an animal they should go to prison.

SNP MSP Angus MacDonald asks for the witnesses view on enforcement and if the proposed legislation is clear on what constitutes an offence.

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain, on behalf of Peter Jolly's Circus and the European Circus Association says it has to be clear but that she doesn't think that all circuses should be taken out for those that don't adhere to the law.

Ms Brown says it is how things are perceived and circus people have been perceived as difficult in the past but it has turned out not to be this case in legislating in Wales.

SNP MSP Graeme Dey asks about concerns about the lions and tigers when they were in Fraserborough.

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says there are now new enclosures that are diverse.

Mr Beckwith says the enclosures have a swimming pool, platforms and logs.

Image source, bbc

He says there are now two enclosures one for lions and one for tigers.

Mr Beckwith says scientific evidence shows it not the size but the environment and stimulation that matters.

He says there is room for the lions and tigers to run around.

Image source, bbc

From the European Circus Association website, external:

"The European Circus Association (ECA) was established to unite Europe’s circuses in order to promote and preserve circus arts and culture as part of Europe’s cultural heritage.

"ECA is a non-profit organization. Its members include circus owners and directors, festivals, animal trainers and artists as well as other organizations representing the same interests.

"Together the ECA believes we can ensure that the circus continues to enchant, educate and entertain children of all ages.

!This includes all kinds of circus, travelling or permanent, big or small, involving varying mixes of artistic displays, acrobatics, comedy and trained animals.

"Circus comes in many forms. Altogether they provide culture for millions!"

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain, on behalf of Peter Jolly's Circus and the European Circus Association says "we know right from wrong" and that is what you boil down to with ethics.

Ms Brown says bad people are nasty all round but Peter Jolly Circus has been operating for some time and the family are involved in the business.

She says "their beloved animals" is what they live for and what they do.

Ms Brown says if you ban in Scotland it will "create a domino affect".

"What's wrong with entertainment?" She asks, adding that if the inspections prove that the animals are being treated well then "why not?"

Image source, bbc

Committee convener Graeme Dey says sitting on a stool following instructions is not natural for big cats.

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says the action of sitting up is natural as are all the other actions the big cats do.

Mr Beckwith says the science and evidence shows the licensing system ensures the wild animals' welfare is protected and thus it is ethical.

He says the licensing system is the most ethical approach and he points to Mexico where the ban was overturned after the suffering faced by animals.

Labour MSP Claudia Beamish asks what he sees as the differences in those type of public entertainment licenses in Scotland to those in England.

Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain chairman Martin Burton says there aren't any in England.

Ms Beamish says she believes there is a UK-wide license.

Mr Burton says that is a different thing.

Circus Mondao animal trainer Carol Macmanus says since the license system has come in there are spot checks and inspections.

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Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain chairman Martin Burton says he is an animal welfarist so he thinks an animal should be protected from roads or abuse.

Mr Burton that means keeping it in a paddock or coral so it is not free.

He asks if giving animals freedom takes away their welfare.

Mr Burton says there is no evidence animals suffer travelling in the circus more than anywhere else.

He says there is no difference between moving a horse around Scotland for circuses than there is in moving a horse from racecourse to racecourse.

Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain chairman Martin Burton says Scotland already has the most robust system of anywhere in the UK.

Mr Burton says the entertainment licenses in Scotland are not the same as those in England and Wales.

"Where will this end?" He asks, "will this end with no more displays at zoos?" Or no more ownership of animals.

He asks "are we emancipating an animal because animals have the same rights as humans?" He says this brings in the argument of animal rights vs animal welfare.

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says there are different species of the same animal and some are domesticated and some are not.

Mr Beckwith says there are camels that are domesticated and those that are ferrel.

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Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain chairman Martin Burton says there are two circuses in England with wild animals do not come to Scotland.

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain says the two licensed circuses in England would like to come to Scotland but it is too far to travel for the wild animals.

Tory MSP Finlay Carson asks if the definition of a wild animal is open to a challenge.

Circus Mondao animal trainer Carol Macmanus says two of the animals she has licensed are domesticated in their own countries and it is only the zebras that are wild animals.

Ms Mondao says the zebras were more domesticated than her cockrell.

She says the definition would be open to challenge.

Image source, AFP

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain, on behalf of Peter Jolly's Circus and the European Circus Association says there should be provision in the Scottish Bill to allow circus people to take reindeer.

Ms Brown says: "Circus people should be able to take reindeer out at Christmas time."

Mr Lyle asks if a lama or a reindeer would be classed as a wild animal.

Circus Mondao animal trainer Carol Macmanus says Lamas are domesticated and some reindeer are and some aren't.

Mr Lyle asks if shows using these animals may be breaking the law under this bill.

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain, on behalf of Peter Jolly's Circus and the European Circus Association says that some animals used in circuses, such as reindeer, are used in Christmas shows in the winter.

Ms Brown says Defra is informed where the animals are going and this is accepted because "Defra do not want to kill Father Christmas".

Image source, bbc

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says the Oxford dictionary definition of a circus is a varitety performance featuring acrobats, clowns and animals.

Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain chairman Martin Burton says the circuses that come to Scotland are well known and none of them include wild animals.

Mr Burton says: "There are no circuses with wild animals that have visited Scotland in recent times."