SNP MSP Richard Lyle says councils sometimes misinterpret bills and acts and asks if the witnesses have any view on what is included in the bill.

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says his show is not covered by the bill because it is not a circus.

Mr Beckwith says "it does travel around in a big top with big cats" but it is an educational performance.

He says his show offered to opt-in to the circus licence process for transparency.

Image source, bbc

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain says vets that belong to DEFRA inspect the licensed circuses three times a year.

The circuses also have to have four other inspections by the lead vet, she says.

Ms Brown says this is the evidence that there is no problem, although again she says there are hiccups where unfair and untrue stories are

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says authors of the original studies which he has mentioned have joined him in raising a complaint against this review and Prof Harris.

Mr Beckwith says that Prof Harris is affiliated with animal rights groups and therefore not impartial.

Image source, ACP

From the Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain website, external:

"The Association of Circus Proprietors of Great Britain, generally referred to as The ACP, is the leading-edge trade association providing leadership and professional support for the circus industry in Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

"Established in 1932, it has, for over eighty years, promoted the interests of its members and the circus industry at large.

"It is recognised by government as the consultative body on proposed legislation or other matters which could affect that industry.

"Its membership is comprehensive, ranging from the major touring and resident circuses to medium-sized and small circuses and also other similar outdoor entertainments, many of which offer a niche product."

Image source, bbc

Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain, on behalf of Peter Jolly's Circus and the European Circus Association says she is concerned about the Dorning Report is just a rehash of the Harris et al report.

Ms Brown says everyone has exhausted the animal welfare approach and cannot prove anything either way.

She says the current view of scientists is that there are no welfare issues for wild animals in circuses as they are now although she accepts there were hiccups in the past.

Ms Brown says Professor Harris and Joe Dorning have not been to the two licensed circuses themselves.

SNP MSP Emma Harper says the Welsh government have published a study saying evidence would support a ban on circuses and mobile zoos.

Ms Harper asks for the witnesses view on this.

An Evening With Lions and Tigers proprietor Anthony Beckwith says that there is evidence which suggests the opposite.

Mr Beckwith says scientific studies have been consistent to say that the welfare in circuses is consistent.

Image source, Anthony Beckwith

In 2015 our colleagues in Wales reported that the man behind an animal show featuring performing lions and tigers denied his animals suffer in captivity.

Animal welfare groups have called for Thomas Chipperfield's show, An Evening with Lions and Tigers, to be banned.

Image source, Thomas Chipperfield

Speaking to BBC Radio Wales' Jason Mohammad programme, Mr Chipperfield said all relevant animal welfare licences are in place and the animals are checked by vets.

"There's no scientific evidence whatsoever to support that claim (of animals suffering)," he said.

"The amount of studies that have been done with regards to the use of animals in live entertainment and zoos... the results always come back overwhelmingly in favour."

But animal welfare groups want the show stopped.

Adam Roberts, chief executive of the Born Free Foundation, said: "In the last two years, the big cats in question have been hauled around the whole of the UK and Ireland for the sole purpose of performing outdated circus tricks for paying audiences."

Read more here.

MSPs begin their third evidence session on the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill.

Committee convener Graeme Dey introduces:

• An Evening With Lions and Tigers, external proprietor Anthony Beckwith
• Rona Brown from the Circus Guild of Great Britain, on behalf of Peter Jolly's Circus, external and the European Circus Association, external
• Association of Circus Proprietors , externalof Great Britain chairman Martin Burton
• Circus Mondao, external animal trainer Carol Macmanus

Read the submissions to the committee here, external.

Image source, Scottish Parliament

Committee convener Graeme Dey suspends the committee to allow everyone to join the rest of the Scottish Parliament in holding a minute's silence out of respect for the victims and people affected by the London terrorist attack.

Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council says having a piecemeal approach is not helpful.

Committee convener Graeme Dey asks if a different approach could be taken to "get to where we want to go."

Argyll and Bute Council senior animal health and welfare officer David Kerr says welfare is so much easier to prove with veterinary assistance.

Mr Kerr says he would be leaning towards the welfare approach.

Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council says he agrees.

Argyll and Bute Council senior animal health and welfare officer David Kerr says that a circus must be better defined.

He says that if it is blurred then the enforcement will be more shaky.

Mr Kerr says "if you want something to happen you will have to write it in".

Mr Ruskell asks if there are things that have been left out that should have been in the bill.

Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council says he shares his colleagues concerns over "blurring the lines".

Mr Mitchell says a travelling circus can be investigated but there is nothing to stop that circus operating while it is being investigated.

Image source, bbc

Tory MSP Finlay Carson asks about events in an agricultural show with wild birds or llamas.

Argyll and Bute Council senior animal health and welfare officer David Kerr says they are dealt with by public entertainment licenses by the environmental health side of the council.

Mr Kerr says: "You are absolutely right there is a blurring of edges there."

Argyll and Bute Council senior animal health and welfare officer David Kerr says "definition is crucial and anything that blurs it brings reasonable doubt".

Mr Kerr says clear definitions are required to help for enforcement.

He says "we really could do with clear definition as much as we can."

SNP MSP Richard Lyle thanks the witnesses for confirming what he already thought which is that the bill must be defined better.

Image source, bbc

SNP MSP Richard Lyle asks what the definition of a circus is.

Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council says his concern is that operators might try to say it what they are offering is not a circus.

Mr Mitchell says: "I don't think the bill will be as easy to enforce as suggested."

Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council says the lack of definition of a circus in the bill is unhelpful.

Mr Mitchell says the act could be fuller in order to meet the policy name.

Image source, bbc

SNP MSP Richard Lyle asks if the witnesses councils has banned circuses.

Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council says his council tried to ban them but failed.

Mr Mitchell says the council then did not let circuses use its land if they had wild animals.

He says circuses would have to approach private landowners.

Argyll and Bute Council senior animal health and welfare officer David Kerr says his council has largely followed the same route as Edinburgh.

SNP MSP Emma Harper asks to what extent have the witnesses been engaged in the bill.

Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council says he has not been that involved in the bill but that COSLA have been.

Mr Mitchell says the issue of wild animals and circuses have been about for some time.

MSPs begin their second evidence session on the Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (Scotland) Bill.

Committee convener Graeme Dey introduces:

• Argyll and Bute Council senior animal health and welfare officer David Kerr
• Andrew Mitchell from the City of Edinburgh Council