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Tory MSP Jeremy Balfour says he sat on tribunals for 20 years.

Mr Balfour says 60% of PIP tribunals are so successful and he asks why.

Jessica Burns from Social Security and Child Support says the tribunal looks at what the person is like over a longer period rather as opposed to the snapshot of a health professional on one day that is the case with assessments.

Ms Burns, who is a regional tribunal judge, says tribunals are very conscious that the implications of a failed appeal can be quite financially devastating.

She says people can be traumatised by the loss of additional income.

Ms Burns says the process itself can impact on the mental health of people.

Ms Macguire asks if there are any international examples of devolved nations having a section of a system.

Dr Jim McCormick from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation says that will be looked in to and his group will look at Canada and possibly Belguim and Switzerland.

John Dickie from the Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland (CPAG) says "there is a need to look ahead to how UK social security will interact with devolved social security."

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SNP MSP Ruth Maguire asks what role Holyrood should play in the scrutiny.

Ms Maguire asks if there are any international examples of scrutiny that could be followed.

Dr Jim McCormick says he chairs an advisory group which will look at scrutiny and it will engage with the parliament through his committee and the Public Audit and Post-legislative Scrutiny Committee.

He says there is a very strong case for having an independent body for scrutiny.

Peter Kelly from The Poverty Alliance says uprating is something which is clearly missing.

Mr Kelly says something around the uprating system should be in there.

Mr Dickie says there should be regulations about what a valid application is.

He says there should also be more information about the recovery of payments.

John Dickie from the Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland (CPAG) says there is no question that there is a balance to be struck between what is put on the face of the Bill and what left off.

Mr Dickie says, as it stands, he does not believe the Bill gets that balance right between primary and secondary legislation.

He says there are issues around people's individual rights to social security.

Mr Dickie says security of income is important to people and there is an issue around there being no primary legislation for people to challenge decisions.

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Labour MSP Mark Griffin says there seems to be a view within government that independent advocacy is needed for people accessing reserved benefits because "the DWP are so terrible".

Mr Griffin says it seems the government feels there will not be such a need for independent advocacy in devolved benefits.

He says there will always be a need for indepenent advocacy.

Mr Dickie says access to independent advocacy is always needed.

Peter Kelly says independent advocacy is an important function and addresses power imbalances.

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Holyrood is to be given control over 11 benefits under the Scotland Bill and work is currently under way to set up a Scottish Social Security Agency.

It will oversee the delivery of benefits including:

• Disability Living Allowance
• Personal Independence Payments
• Carer's Allowances
• Discretionary Housing Payments
• Winter Fuel Payments
• Best Start Grant
• Funeral Expense Assistance grant

The handover of powers is being phased across the current parliamentary term.

Peter Kelly from The Poverty Alliance says independent advocacy should be linked back to equalities issues in that it may help to support people to claim the benefits they are entitled to.

"There is an important role for independent advocacy in the system," he says.

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John Dickie from the Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland says advocacy support must not just revolve around devolved areas but be holistic.

Mr Dickie says there needs to be advocacy and independent advice

• Dundee will be the agency headquarters
• Glasgow will be the main administrative site in the west of Scotland
• 1,500 staff will be required
• social security agency to be employing around 250 staff by summer 2019
• at least 400 jobs will be created for the locally based agency presence

Jessica Burns from Social Security and Child Support says independent advocacy can give people a bit more confidence in the process.

Dr Jim McCormick from the Joseph Rowntree Foundation says his understanding is that independent advocacy can be quite "soft-touch".

Dr McCormick says it can be family members going along with claimants to provide some support.

"The choice to be able to draw on this support... can be very important."

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Jessica Burns from Social Security and Child Support raises the issue of representation and advocacy in a complex system.

Ms Burns says: "There must be a holistic approach for people claiming benefit through Universal Credit."

She says it has to be support that covers the whole benefits package that might apply to an individual or a family.

Ms Burns says there is 80% representation at tribunals compared to 20% south of the border.

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SNP MSP Ben Macpherson asks if independent advocacy should be thought on in a nuanced way with the hope that the Scottish system will be better than the DWP system.

Mr Macpherson says he does not think this Bill can deliver all the social security powers necessary to eradicate poverty in Scotland.

Peter Kelly from The Poverty Alliance says the social security system cannot tackle poverty itself.

Mr Kelly says the powers coming to Scotland are substantial and there must be positively around those powers and how they can help some people out of poverty.

Peter Kelly from The Poverty Alliance says if we are to have principles and it is to have any meaning, there must be some form of redress.

Mr Kelly says there must be a way for claimants to seek redress.

• According to the government the agency is expected to contribute around £125 million in GDP to the wider economy and support around 800 other jobs outside the agency.
• The Scottish government will be given the powers to deliver eleven benefits devolved as part of the Scotland Act 2016 under the Social Security (Scotland) Bill, introduced in June this year.
• The new agency is expected to be fully operational by 2021 and will provide a local presence across Scotland, providing face-to-face support and advice, supported by centralised administrative functions.
• It also provides powers to top up reserved benefits. The first benefit to be delivered by the agency is expected to be the Carers’ Allowance Supplement in summer 2018.

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Tory MSP Adam Tomkins says the Scottish government wants to pursue a human rights base for the social security system.

Mr Tomkins asks if if Scotland is serious about having a human rights approach then one of the aspects must be the ability to go to court and he asks if the Bill should reflect this on its face.

Jessica Burns from Social Security and Child Support says any benefits system must have conditionality.

Ms Burns says it would be naive to think the Bill could please everybody.

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John Dickie from CPAG says the Bill should be strengthened to say the government has a duty to provide the benefits they are entitled to.