Prof Cyrus Tata calls for a principle to be established with an aim to end all prison sentences unless it is required.

"We need to think about as a society what prison is not for."

It is not a school, it is not accommodation and that's not what we are about in Scotland anymore, he insists.

Prof Tata set out two principles in his submission to the committee, below.

Image source, Scottish Parliament

Mr Kerr asks about flaws in the data about reoffending in CPOs and whether this undermines this proposal.

Dr Sarah Armstrong says she did not say there were not flaws, but points out people serving community sentences generally have fewer convictions.

She adds it may well be CPOs have much better outcomes than custodial sentences but that cannot be ascertained at the moment, because it's comparing apples with oranges.

Tory MSP Liam Kerr asks about the infrastructure for community sentencing.

Prof Tata says prison is becoming the ever-reliable option while community penalties are viewed as unreliable and slow.

He also warns the funding for community services is "precarious" while prison funding is always there.

Image source, bbc

SNP MSP Shona Robison asks if the presumption would work alongside other measures.

Prof Tata replies: "We've got shockingly poor data in this country."

He points out comparing different areas is not possible and says league tables are "utterly spurious".

The academic agrees that Ms Robison is probably right, but calls for a commitment that prison will not be used unless the crime requires it.

Dr Morrison says there is more that can be done to raise awareness of all the non-custodial services that are available.

Dr Sarah Armstrong says she no longer supports the presumption against short sentences, as it is a unilateral blunt tool which will have unanticipated effects.

Dr Morrison agrees that this proposal in and of itself will not achieve its goal.

We do support it but it is only an important first step, she adds.

The Howard League Scotland says CPOs can lead people back to prison and calls for more deferred sentences.

Prof Tata reiterates his view that he does not think this proposal will make much difference.

Image source, Getty Images

New figures which show how many people have appeared in Scotland's criminal courts over the last year, and what happened to them, have been published by the Scottish government., external

The number of people facing criminal charges in Scottish courts has continued to fall, as has the number being found guilty. This has been the trend for the last 10 years.

Proceedings were taken against a total of 95,254 people in 2017/18, a fall of 11% on 2016/17, while the number of convictions fell by 10% from 92,347 to 82,716.

There has been a 10% drop in the number of community sentences handed out last year, from 18,646 in 2016/17 to 16,830 in 2017/18.

Read more.

Professor Cyrus Tata of the Centre for Law, Crime and Justice says Scotland is practicing penal welfarism.

He adds: "We're using it as the poorhouse."

People should not be sent to prison as the last line of the welfare state, argues the academic.

Dr Katrina Morris points out the recent crime survey said three quarters of the public did not have a good knowledge of the criminal justice system.

The solutions lie beyond the criminal justice system, she adds.

Dr Sarah Armstrong from the Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Research asks how a country like Scotland is making such a huge use of resource intensive prisons.

"More people working on this programme will mean better results."

Increasingly we are asking the criminal justice system to come up with solutions for societal issues like addiction and housing, she adds

Professor Cyrus Tata of the Centre for Law, Crime and Justice says he is less sure that this proposal will change a great amount and points out it is not the fault of the judges.

Prison is being used as a poor house which is a societal issue, he adds.

The academic argues there must be a proposal on which cases should lead to prison.

He says prison becomes the default and calls for a vision to say that by 2040 we will stop using prison essentially as a place to access services.

"Should we really be locking people up because of their needs?"

The committee convener again asks about the resource implications of the proposal to extend the presumption against short sentences to 12 months.

Dr Katrina Morrison from Howard League Scotland says she supports the extension to 12 months but adds it is not being done to save money.

Dr Morrison argues more resources will be required for statutory and third sector organisations, but in the long term there may be savings.

She says if there is not more cash "we are setting people up to fail".

The committee is hearing from:

• Dr Katrina Morrison from Howard League Scotland, external
• Dr Sarah Armstrong from the Scottish Centre for Crime and Justice Research, external
• Professor Cyrus Tata of the Centre for Law, Crime and Justice, external

Tory MSP Liam Kerr asks about victims' views on that fact the one in three CPOs are currently not completed.

Kate Wallace of Victim Support Scotland calls for more transparency, because at the moment it is difficult to get information about engagement and breaches.

Mr Kerr wonders about the use of CPOs for domestic abuse offenders.

Ms Wallace highlights the need to look at non-harassment orders and other measures as the Domestic Abuse Act beds in.

Image source, bbc

SNP MSP Shona Robison asks why is there such a variation in sentencing across Scotland.

Ms Hoskins replies that this is due to the independence of the judiciary which must be recognised.

Mr McConnell agrees, but adds there are variations in provision as well.

Ms Robison wonders if the success of the presumption against three month sentences has attracted interest from other countries.

Very much so replies, Mr McConnell, who points to interest from both England and Wales.

He adds: "We have been seen as sort of leading the way."

Lib Dem MSP Liam McArthur asks about the impact of the presumption against three month sentences and how the extension to 12 months would likely play out.

1,049 people are currently in the care of the prison service servicing sentences of under 12 months, Colin McConnell says.

He points to estimates that extending the presumption could lead to 525 fewer people being in prison.

However, he adds that there could still be a significant number of people serving sentences of less than 12 months after the extension but this might be appropriate for them.

Image source, bbc

Mr McConnell reiterates his point the judiciary must be free to make decisions based on the person in front of them.

On that basis there will be people in prison for less than 12 months after the introduction of the presumption against this, he adds.

SNP MSP Rona Mackay moves on to discuss the issue of women in prison and ponders if there is a lack of joined up working between agencies to help women avoid reoffending.

Laura Hoskins of Community Justice Scotland agrees that the number of women in prison, particularly for sentences of under 12 months, is "shocking".

Mr Maybee cites Lord Advocate Elish Angiolini's report calling for a "radical reworking" of the system, published seven years ago.