Convener Margaret Mitchell asks what other action could be taken to respond to the challenges in the Scottish Prison Service.

Prof Nancy Loucks points to the model in place in Sweden which restricts prison populations in legislation, suggesting a cap could be useful.

Sean Duffy says the 'more out, fewer in' approach must be a focus, adding the cost benefits are clear.

Alastair Muir says group work involving psycho-dynamic counselling and people with lived experience can really help reduce violence in prisons.

Prof Loucks adds preventative spend must look beyond justice and towards health and housing too.

The session draws to a close.

SNP MSP Rona Mackay asks about the impact of the presumption against short term sentences.

Prof Loucks says this is extremely important particularly for women for preventing disruption.

I welcome the presumption against short term sentences, the Families Outside chief executive says, but adds she is concerned about the level of support in the community to help prevent women going in to prison through the backdoor at a later date.

Mr Duffy says: "We fully support the presumption against short sentences."

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An extension of the presumption against short sentences handed out in Scottish courts was signed off by MSPs in June.

Since 2011, judges have been instructed not to impose a prison sentence of three months or less, unless no other punishment is deemed "appropriate".

Holyrood has now voted by 83 to 26 to extending this presumption to sentences of 12 months or less.

Tom Halpin says there is a "huge gap" between the rhetoric on preventative spend and the resourcing given.

The SACRO representatives says we know what works but when cuts had to be made, these services were seen as low hanging fruit.

He highlights that while prison numbers have gone up, the number of young offenders has fallen by 300 due to a whole system approach.

We have to be big not just in our ambition and our rhetoric, but also in systematic change he insists.

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Lib Dem MSP Liam McArthur asks about resources currently available to help reduce the occasion of people coming into the criminal justice system.

Prevention is key, replies Mr Muir, adding stopping recidivism is also important.

The Violence Reduction Unit deputy director and chief inspector says young people should be equipped to challenge unacceptable behaviour like bullying or sexting.

"We really believe in prevention."

Mentoring by those with lived experience is huge, he adds.

Prof Nancy Loucks highlights all three prisons in Northern Ireland use video links to supplement family visits and that the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child recommends this.

In practice we are seeing a real inconsistency in Scottish prisons' ability to accommodate it, she adds.

Prof Loucks adds it does not have to be prison staff that oversee such facilities, as in HMP Inverness is it Action for Children which runs it.

Prof Loucks explains families have real concerns when people come out of prison without support to connect with in terms of addiction or mental health.

The Families Outside chief executive says if officers are pulled away from duties to deal with prison overcrowding it leads to a lot of gaps.

Mr Halpin highlights the need for funding for a "Cinderella service" like transporting families to see prisoners, citing to allowances for this.

The convener wonders if organisations like SACRO or the Wise Group could support prisoners before release.

We are already in prison six months pre-liberation, explains Sean Duffy.

This has not been interrupted despite staff shortages though we are alive to concerns about resourcing challenges impacting on the partnership approach and handovers he tells the committee.

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SNP MSP Rona Mackay ask how the temporary withdrawal of throughcare officers have affected families.

Prof Nancy Loucks of Families Outside replies it has made the charity's job much more difficult as the issues that families are facing are not highlighted to us.

It's been a loss in terms of reaching out to families we would not otherwise have access to, adds Prof Loucks.

Labour MSP James Kelly wonders about indications that the 42 officers involved in throughcare will be introduced back.

Sean Duffy of the Wise Group says the focus has been on putting in place an interim solution rather than the longer term.

SACRO's Tom Halpin says there has been no indication of when the service will be introduced.

It is important to really focus on the needs of these people because often their life experience before prison is a lack of support, which led to them making the decisions which led to prison in the first place he adds.

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Alastair Muir from the Violence Reduction Unit, external and Sean Duffy from the Wise Group, external agree about the importance of throughcare.

Tom Halpin explains there was no discussion about redeploying officers from throughcare to the prison estate.

Sean Duffy agrees but adds since the decision took place the Wise Group has been fully involved.

Mr Finnie says at best this lack of discussion ahead of the redeployment seems a discourtesy.

Mr Halpin replies says the relationship built up with the throughcare officers was good, so it was "really disappointing" that for resourcing reasons that it had to be suspended.

The mentors are stepping up as best they can but that has resourcing implications, he adds.

Green MSP John Finnie asks about the implications of prisoner capacity on rehabilitation and reintegration.

Tom Halpin from SACRO says there is "no doubt" that high prisoner numbers are impacting on staff ability to support prisoners, which has knock-on affect on rehabilitation.

Prof Nancy Loucks of Families Outside says the suspension of the throughcare service is a loss and expresses concern about other similar support being lost.

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Last week Auditor General Caroline Gardner said “the Scottish Prison Service faces a combination of severe pressures on many fronts; this poses a threat to operational safety, effectiveness and financial sustainability”.

Ms Gardner said the deep cuts in day to day spending and historically-high overcrowding meant Scotland’s prisons were running “well over operating capacity”.

She told the Scottish parliament the service’s problems were due largely to repeated cuts in government funding, which had fallen by 12.5% in real terms since the 2014/15 financial year, falling from £395m to £345m.

Prisoner numbers increased by nearly nine per cent in 2018/19, to 8,212, and are set to rise further.

Stress-related sickness among staff rose by nearly one third in 2018/19, and additional payments to staff working longer hours increased by 65% to £4.25m.

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Committee convener Margaret Mitchell introduces the second panel of witnesses:

• Professor Nancy Loucks from Families Outside, external
• Tom Halpin from SACRO, external
• Alastair Muir from the Violence Reduction Unit, external
• Sean Duffy from The Wise Group, external

Tory MSP Liam Kerr turns to the funding of rehabilitation and the use of psychoactive drugs.

Mr Kerr says he understands we are not stopping the drugs getting in and asks about the use of a rapiscan.

A rapiscan is a hi-tech machine which helps prevent psychoactive substances getting into prison.

Mr Fairlie explains the dogs are not quite as effective at identifying psychoactive drugs as they are at identifying heroin, cocaine and cannabis.

The rapiscan is a great piece of equipment but there are only three for the whole estate, he adds, insisting we should have a rapid scan in every single prison.

Mr Fairlie says the priority has to be to ensure there are enough staff to match prisoner numbers.

We need a staff compliment for the actual prison population, not the numbers that are meant to be held he adds.

Just adding to the salary is not going to make it an attractive career move, the Prison Officers Association Scotland (POAS) representative insists.

Until we tackle the core problem - there being far too many prisoners - we are not going to be able to tackle other problems he says.

Mr Sandham says we still have Victorian prisons which impacts on the capital investment.

The deputy chief inspector of prisons says Barlinnie is the single point of failure and it has no capacity to cope with further surges of numbers.

He adds Barlinnie, Inverness and Greenock all need replaced, as well as parts of Dumfries and Perth.

Mr Sandham adds there only five cells for disabled prisoners in Barlinnie which is unacceptable.

With historical sex offenders coming into prison, there are more elderly prisoners coming in, he explains.

Stephen Sandham welcomes the commitment from the Scottish government on modernising the women's estate and on HMP Glasgow.

The new national women's facilities at Cornton Vale and the community facilities in Glasgow and Dundee are to be in place by 2021, though there is no date yet for HMP Glasgow he adds.

HMP Barlinnie is not fit for purpose and the sooner we can get a replacement the better, Mr Sandham states.

Mr Fairlie says there are three prisons which urgently need replacing or removed from the estate altogether, one of which is Barlinnie.

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SNP MSP Shona Robison asks how many officers have been redeployed from throughcare back into the prison estate.

There were 42 replies Mr Fairlie, adding they need support and this has been an operational decision.

Mr Sandham reiterates are 500 extra people in our prisons and there aren't the staff to deal with it.

He points to £22m of extra funding from the Scottish government to help with the pressures on the Scottish Prison Service, including the pay settlement.

We hope the suspension of throughcare services is only temporary and that they will be restored, Stephen Sandham states.

Labour MSP James Kelly asks if there is a timeline in place for reintroducing it.

Mr Fairlie says there is not because the prison service is unsure how long prisons will continue to be overcapacity for or when sickness absence levels will change.

He explains a review is underway to look at absence levels.