Nottingham Forest

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Premier League relegation is "not going to be decided on the football pitch", says Nottingham Forest fan Sarah Brown.

The Reds have become the second club this season, alongside Everton, to be deducted points for breaching the league's profit and sustainability rules after they had four points docked on Monday.

This comes as discussions continue over new financial regulations that are set to come in this summer.

Speaking on BBC Radio 5 Live, Brown said: "Let's hope they can get it [new financial regulations] right this time because it is a bit of a shambles, it's not a fair playing field.

"The points differences they're looking at this season, they seem to have gone for Everton and Forest. The talk is about Forest being in [financial] trouble, but I believe we were in the PSR [breaches] for just two months so I don't think we have a financial issue we just overstepped the mark for those two months, but we did break the rules.

"I'm a forest fan, I'm not going to think it's fair. It could have been worse, definitely could have been worse as it could have been six, but listening to some of the interviews by some of the experts, it sounded like we might get away with three. I don't know where they pick the numbers from, it seems to be out of thin air.

"It's the fans again, we're trying to watch our football and support our team and getting points and wins in the Premier League is so hard to come by it is unbelievable. Then just to take four points off you, it's not going to be decided on the football pitch."

The four-point punishment leaves Forest in the relegation zone above last season's promoted sides Burnley and Sheffield United and one point behind Luton Town.

Brown added: "We want to make this a competitive league but it just isn't. How do you compete when you haven’t got the income coming in? Because to have the income to generate that kind of income you need to be in the Premier League for an established time."

Asked if the Reds can avoid the drop, she added: "I'm going to say yes because I think the players we have got, the team we have got and the fans, we should be, we should be better than Luton. We have spent the money so lets go and do it."

Pat Riddell
Fan writer

With Nottingham Forest’s profit and sustainability rules’ (PSR) four-point penalty set to be appealed, there remains an argument that the Reds’ inability to defend set-pieces is the real problem this season.

Owner Evangelos Marinakis was apparently frustrated about the club’s lack of a specialist set-piece coach back in November, and the appointment of Simon Rusk duly followed in December.

As it turns out, Rusk has hardly been involved with the first team since Nuno Espirito Santo arrived the same month. And Forest’s biggest problem on the pitch persists.

Another late goal conceded on Saturday to Luton Town meant the Reds yet again failed to keep a clean sheet and were left rueing missed chances to finish off the game.

It was the 19th goal conceded from a set-piece, equating to 37% of the 51 we have let in this season, more than any other Premier League club.

Concentration levels, communication, confusion about man-to-man marking and zonal marking leaving players free at the edge of the box… it is a catalogue of errors that could cost the club heavily.

Similarly, scoring from set-pieces has been pitiful - just four compared with Saturday’s opponents Luton, who have 13 - is equally an issue. Perhaps with knowledge of the PSR punishment, Nuno and the coaching staff can now concentrate on an issue they have some control over.

Pat Riddell can be found on The Famous Club, external

Leicester City defender Conor Coady says "it's really tough" for footballers to be focused on the pitch when there are off-field distractions being reported daily in the media.

"I can always speak from a player's point of view and it's so, so tough being in the dressing room when you're reading things in the media about it being this day or that day," said Coady on BBC Radio 5 Live's Monday Night Club.

"It's a tough season anyway and you're struggling to win and pick up points, but you know at any point you could also be docked six, four or eight points.

"You have to keep your mind focused as a footballer, but it's really tough when you see another bit of news has broken.

"Burnley will be looking at it and sniffing because they are only five points off Forest now. It affects so many teams and I can't imagine what those teams are going through."

Listen to the full discussion on BBC Sounds

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Football finance expert Kieran Maguire says Nottingham Forest's punishment for breaching financial rules "does seem harsh".

Forest was handed a four-point deduction after being found to have exceeded the £61m yearly loss threshold by £34.5m.

As a newly promoted club, the Reds did not have the benefit of having the £105m yearly loss threshold of established clubs in the Premier League.

Speaking to BBC Radio 5 Live, Maguire said: "Forest were having to operate with one hand held behind their back because they were allowed to lose only £61m over three years because they had just been promoted from the Championship whereas other established clubs in the Premier League - the likes of Crystal Palace or Brighton - they could lose £105m, so it does seem harsh.

"If Forest were allowed to lose £105m, they would've been just within the allowable limit and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

"The reason for that [the differential] is that if clubs have been in the Championship they're only allowed to lose £13m each year and if they've been in the Premier League they're allowed to lose £35m, so in the case of Forest it was 35 plus two 13s, which gave them a loss of £61m, which was their target."

A new financial system, likely to be based on Uefa's model, is currently being considered by the Premier League and clubs to replace the current profit and sustainability rules.

Uefa's rules limit spending on player and coach wages, transfers, and agent fees to a percentage of the club's revenue, starting at 90% this season and reducing to 70% from 2025-26.

Maguire added: "We're almost certain to change to a wage cap from the summer of 2024. Unfortunately, that will just reinforce the existing imbalances within the game because you can have a club such as Manchester City which generates £700m a year and can spend 70% of its income - so it can spend £490m on wages and a club such as Forest, perhaps generating £200m, can only spend £140m on wages.

"So we're not going to have better rules, were just going to have different ones."

We asked for your thoughts on Nottingham Forest's four-point deduction for breaching the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules. The punishment has dragged the Reds into the relegation zone.

Here is a snapshot of your comments:

Daniel: I think the overall punishment is probably fair, given the fact we know some of the spending was openly reckless and didn't even involve the manager. That said, I think the reduced losses for teams coming up from the Championship is rather unfair. The first year up in the Premier League is when you are most likely to need the extra spending, so that you can actually compete!

Lee: The whole thing seems unfair and a mess. It's not right being punished for something the owner can afford and had tried to balance the books with more profit in sales. Worse still, Manchester City still haven't been heard at all for more charges, and the very rules that have deducted our points won't be in place next season! Shocking. I hope we stay up!

Kevin: I say accept the punishment and get on with the rest of the season. Although the manager and the squad keep saying they don’t think about the proceedings and just get on with the fixtures, all of this is clearly in the back of their minds. If we appeal, there will be further uncertainty running into May.

Shaun: Appeal, appeal, appeal. If they were confident of winning an appeal they would have given us a bigger deduction. If it drags on past the end of the season, so be it. It will show the Premier League that their process is not fit for purpose.

Joel: It could've been a lot worse. If we can't overturn a one point deficit to overtake Luton then we have no right to expect to be playing Premier League football. Heads down and let's get cracking.

Ravinreg: As a long-time supporter, I am gutted. Yes we probably breached the rules, however nothing has been done about Chelsea or Manchester City. If the Premier League wants an open and fair competition, they need apply the rules to all and give the promoted clubs a level playing field. Otherwise, let the top six play in a European League.

What do you think of the punishment? Make your choice here

Nick Mashiter
Senior football news reporter

Nottingham Forest’s four-point deduction plunges them into the relegation zone but it is not as black and white as that.

While the punishment may be seen as being on the lighter side – especially after Everton’s initial 10-point penalty in November – the club’s co-operation helped their case, although they feel they have been hard done by in the process.

The sale of Brennan Johnson to Tottenham for a fee worth over £45m was central to their defence, led by sports lawyer Nick De Marco.

Wales international Johnson left on 1 September, outside the assessment period but after the club had rejected three bids from Brentford in July and August – the final and highest at £40m - and a 50m euro offer from Atletico Madrid on 30 June.

The striker, who came through the club’s academy, was not keen to join the Bees at that point but Tottenham also had to bide their time to make their move – all factors that impacted Forest’s position.

His transfer to Spurs was ultimately linked to Harry Kane’s move to Bayern Munich, with Spurs able to move for a replacement once the England skipper left for Germany in his own move reportedly worth an initial £82m.

Forest regard raising more money by selling Johnson when they did – rather than selling earlier and cheaper – remains in the spirit of the profit and sustainability rules. They stuck to their valuation and sold within the same transfer window. There is a feeling at the City Ground they tried to work towards what the regulations stand for.

Forest never disputed the breach – they knew what the timeframe and rules were – and they are not unique in terms of needing to work within the regulations but as a newly promoted club, operating under constraints of smaller losses, they are unique in that sense.

There is a growing sense among Premier League clubs the current rules do not suit even the nuances of the transfer window. However, while they are due to be tweaked, they remain the rules that Forest have been punished by.

An appeal would not be a surprise.

Simon Stone
Chief football news reporter

Nottingham Forest will have seven days to appeal to the Premier League about their points deduction.

The response to the appeal has to be sent within seven days of that. A directions hearing to agree a date for the appeal to be heard will then have to take place within seven days of that.

The absolute backstop date for the appeal hearing to be concluded is 24 May, which is after the final games.

However, the guidance in the regulations is that 'if possible’' it should be done a long time before 24 May and we have reached this point three weeks ahead of deadline so there is no reason why it should not be done before the final games.

Image source, Getty Images

We want to know your views on the four-point deduction.

Too harsh? Too lenient? About right?

Or should it have just been a fine?

Make your selection here

Nottingham Forest are now 18th in the table with nine games remaining after receiving a deduction of four point due to Premier League profit and sustainability rules breaches.

We want your thoughts.

Is it a better outcome than you were expecting - or do you feel it is too harsh?

What does it mean for the Reds' survival chances?

Let us know here

Nottingham Forest have been deducted four points for breaching the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules, BBC Sport understands.

As a result, Nuno Espirito Santo's side have slipped into the relegation zone and are now one point behind Luton Town in 17th with nine games remaining.

Image source, Getty Images

Nottingham Forest have received a four-point deduction for breaching the Premier League's profit and sustainability rules, BBC Sport understands.

The decision from a hearing into the breaking of the financial rules was announced on Monday and sees the Reds drop into the relegation zone on 21 points - one point from safety.

Premier League clubs can lose £105m over three seasons - £35m per campaign - but, because Forest - who admitted the breaches - spent two years of the assessment period in the Championship, their maximum loss was only permitted to be £61m.

Read the full story over here

We asked for your thoughts on Saturday's game between Luton Town and Nottingham Forest in the Premier League.

Here are some of your responses:

Luton fans

Nicola: Supporting Luton Town is one of the hardest things in the world. We must get ourselves together and start playing the way I know we can or we will be relegated. We can do better. We must do better. We are Luton Town and we deserve our place in the Premier League. Well done on the point salvaged, boys.

Sue: That was the best that a patched-up team could do. They are still in the mix but they have kept us within touching distance. When we get a couple of our injured players back, it will be game on. I still believe.

Alec: Luton played well at times, with lapses of concentration. The refereeing performance was an absolute shambles. Nowadays referees sadly don't know the laws of the game. Both assistants were also very poor. PGMOL and Mr Webb need to open their eyes.

Louise: Luton never do it the easy way but we are a side that never gives up. So I think that we are still in with a chance of Premier League survival.

Forest fans

John: Unbelievable. We score first, work hard, miss chances, get caught in the last minute... and drop points. A draw away from home should feel like an achievement: it doesn't. We now have nine games to get lot of points, just in case we get a points deduction. I want it to happen but... [I'm not sure].

Steve: So frustrating. We had chances to get a second but we aren’t clinical enough. We can’t defend set-pieces, whoever plays at the back. The manager tried to play it safe at 1-0 with his substitutes, but it backfired. I'm fearful for the run-in now, after the inevitable points deduction coming up. Why isn’t Callum Hudson-Odoi starting games? The Palace game is massive now.

Alex: A draw is always better than a loss, but throwing away the game at the last minute yet again, after doing the same against Manchester United and Liverpool, is incredibly frustrating. Hopefully we won't look back on that equaliser as the point that got us relegated.

Iain: The Burnley v Brentford game has helped us out. This was a fantastic chance to put some space between us and the relegation zone before any points deduction. Once again, Forest's inability to defend set-pieces made itself known, and now there are no strikers. This feels incredibly costly and the players look like they are always expecting to be beaten.

Image source, Getty Images

Former Brighton striker Glenn Murray has praised attacking midfielder Morgan Gibbs-White for "always looking to progress the team" in his performances, particularly in the Reds' draw against Luton Town.

"I'm a big fan of his. I think he is always positive, he gets on the half-turn and plays defence-splitting passes," Murray said on Match of the Day. "He's just always looking to progress the team.

"He makes a wonderful turn, skins [Teden] Mengi, drives right down the heart of the Luton defence, and picks up a foul on the edge of the box.

"The ball for Chris Wood's goal was absolutely wonderful. The control, the turn, the ball - he didn't even have to look. He knew the area it needed to go in to and, as a former striker, he makes Chris Wood's job there so easy.

"He's just always positive. He's got another side to his game - he doesn't shirk his responsibilities and fights back. For me, that's why he has become a really positive leader for Nottingham Forest.

"He came off in the 82nd minute and they conceded in the 89th [minute]."

The 24-year-old has made 28 Premier League appearances for Forest this season, contributing three goals and five assists along the way.

Catch up on Match of the Day on BBC iPlayer

Gary Lineker introduces highlights and analysis from Saturday's three Premier League fixtures.

If you missed Match of the Day, you can catch up on the action on BBC iPlayer.

Listen back to Saturday's BBC Radio 5 Live and 5 Sports Extra match commentary in full:

Luton Town v Nottingham Forest

Sam Drury
BBC Sport journalist

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"We had clear chances to kill the game," Nottingham Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo declared after the game.

After seeing his side have three shots cleared off the line and a number of other opportunities beside, it is hard to argue.

Conceding from another set piece will frustrate Nuno but he was clear that far more frustrating was the fact that it really should not have affected the result.

Forest were solid defensively, restricting Luton to shots from distance, but one lapse from a corner proved costly.

Divock Origi and Anthony Elanga will be wondering quite how they didn't add to Chris Wood's opener.

They can point to some good last-ditch Luton defending but both should have done more to ensure there could be no defensive heroics.

They did not and, as a result, instead of moving six points clear of the drop zone, Forest stay just three above Luton.

It's a position made all the more precarious by a potential points deduction, with reports suggesting they will discover the outcome of their profit and sustainability charge on Monday.

Nottingham Forest boss Nuno Espirito Santo has been speaking to BBC Match of the Day following the draw: "I think we did enough in the game to win it with the chances that we had and the way that we played. We should've taken three points."

On the missed chances: "That's the only thing that we could've done better, being clinical with the final touch and the finishing, because we had clear chances to kill the game and the result would've been different.

"We need our strikers to finish and score. Unfortunately, we have had a big blow with the fitness of Taiwo Awoniyi - he had a knock during the week, so let's see how he is. Hopefully Chris [Wood] stays well, it is important that we keep him fit."

On forward Chris Wood: "He has to be assessed. He was feeling something, so it was a precaution. Hopefully it's nothing."

On conceding from another set-piece: "In this game, we had big boys to solve situations. OK, there is a problem there, but it is a huge problem to finish the chances that we have. [The] clear chances.

"I'm not happy with the performance. I think we did a good job. The boys stuck to their tasks, defended well, competed well, but I'm not happy with the way we finished our actions."